Possible The Finest Sword With A Hefty Pricetag!

[Stephen]

OK OK some how i got 32 MILLION in my head, and yes if i could afford org Shelby Cobra or a Van Gogh, i would pay the price and this sword,  how 32 million was kicking around in my head IDK, must have been a lotto prize ...now big mac's? i cant stomach them,  not going to plug another brand but im sure i could out eat you on them...lol

[Bugyotsuji]

You are forgiven, Stephen, for your blasphemy.

[Brian]

If I thought $32 Million, I would probably agree

I would probably rather buy Zimbabwe. Or the UK once the Pound drops a bit more.

:rotfl:

[Stephen]

Yes my own country, now i could get behind being a Dictator, never to have a post removed.....yesssss!!! 

[paulb]

sorry Brian it has rallied a little today so you purchase of the UK will have to wait a little longer.

 

Ok just to prove I am increasingly at odds with the rest of the world I confess I do not like this sword, at least based on the images shown

l don't doubt the skill and ability of the smith but I fail to understand the rapturous enthusiasm exhibited here. As suggested previously it is possible the hamon was created by quenching without clay, therefore the flamboyant pattern is accidental (I accept it is a practice that requires great skill but the result is uncontrolled) The result is something that might be described as having the subtlety of a tart's boudoir.

I admit that my non Bizen view is often challenged when I see blades in hand and I have seen a number that have given me cause to reconsider my negative view. That could well be the case with this one. But based on the picture I fail to understand the hype and enthusiasm.

I will now slink quietly back in to my isolated corner!!

[Kurikata]

3 Million € is considered a the price of a life in France

 

(http://www.liberation.fr/france/2016/09/02/pourquoi-une-vie-vaut-3-millions-d-euros-en-france_1476348)

 

Sorry for having posted the link of this article in French but Google translator might help....

 

In two words it is stated in this article that this amount (3 M€) has been defined by French Authorities to measure the Return on Investment when making new roads, environment protection investments etc..... (ie if we invest 100 M€ and as a consequence it will save 20 lifes only, investment will not be decided  ==> 20*3 = 60 < 100 )

 

Is this Katana worth one man/woman  life ? 

[seattle1]

Hello:

 What an interesting thread!  Three quick questions/observations:

 1. Piers mentions a rationale for sale as possibly being connected to crippling "yearly taxes". Does Japan have a net wealth tax as do several European nations? Perhaps it is specific to Government designated items such as National Treasures and the like?

 2. The discussion of worth is always enhanced by remembering several lines from the musical Mary Poppins as found in Scene 7: The Bank

     - Northbrook pulls out two coins and hands them to the children.

     - Michael: "I know the value of this (indicating one); six pence." 

     - Northbrook: "No, that's its worth. Its value is how you spend it."

    and that brings us to that sword or 1 million hamburgers!

 3. Bruno raises, by implication, the benefit/cost analysis that is implicit in every civil engineering choice. Those life calculations are made in countless circumstances and will always be as long as scarcity exits, and that is forever. The highway planners always know that there is a direct relation between the tightness of a curve and the automobile deaths that will occur there. How that makes the $3.2 million the blade might cost questionable isn't clear. What social choice theory calls into question such trade offs?

 Arnold F.

[vajo]

If I thought $32 Million, I would probably agree

I would probably rather buy Zimbabwe. Or the UK once the Pound drops a bit more.

:rotfl:

Zimbabwe? OMG they will made 3.200.000.000.000 Trillion (Simbabwe) Dollars out of your money. 

 

 

With 32 Million Dollar i would keep at 5:20 in the morning the timer of (go not to work) - and sleep until 8:00 

[Curran]

I was hoping Guido or one of our other Japanese readers would confirm the amount.

I have never heard of a sword going at this pricepoint, though I would prefer it over a 3 line painting or Vancouver RE at present prices.

[Death-Ace]

This sword just looks and is astounding! Also owned by one of the most famous generals in Japanese history and in its original koshirae?

 

Heck, I'd be afraid of touching even the nakago and having the slightest surface scratch occuring for some odd reason. Bye bye paycheck for a year!

[paulb]

only 1 year?  

[Kronos]

sorry Brian it has rallied a little today so you purchase of the UK will have to wait a little longer.

 

Ok just to prove I am increasingly at odds with the rest of the world I confess I do not like this sword, at least based on the images shown

l don't doubt the skill and ability of the smith but I fail to understand the rapturous enthusiasm exhibited here. As suggested previously it is possible the hamon was created by quenching without clay, therefore the flamboyant pattern is accidental (I accept it is a practice that requires great skill but the result is uncontrolled) The result is something that might be described as having the subtlety of a tart's boudoir.

I admit that my non Bizen view is often challenged when I see blades in hand and I have seen a number that have given me cause to reconsider my negative view. That could well be the case with this one. But based on the picture I fail to understand the hype and enthusiasm.

I will now slink quietly back in to my isolated corner!!

 

What you're missing is the pure, unadulterated beauty of nature that had a hand in creating this. The reason I dislike Gendaito and a large proportion of shinto/shinshinto works is that it's so contrived and manufactured it's lost the magic. The skill is in controlling the outcome without snuffing out the elegance and patterns that only comes from nature like a seashell.

 

Even A good Suguha of the Awataguchi or Rai schools has this. It's like a gentle Yasutsugu notare compared to an acid etched chinese piece of junk.

[paulb]

Hi James

I am full agreement regarding uncontrived beauty, whether swords or anything else the best art always looks natural, the harder someone has to work at it the less natural and the less attractive it becomes.

I guess what I am getting at (again) is there is a habit, not only here, but generally to start jumping in with praise and ecstatic comment without anyone saying why they think it is so good. The feeling is you are told it's good therefore it must be therefore you have to like it. and tell everyone how much I like it.

 

I love uncontrived work and yes I can see it in this and enjoy it. Is it better or more difficult than a complex sugu-ha with a microcosm of activity running through it? no to me it isn't.

I have had the chance to hold some exceptional Ichi-monji works and they are fantastic, I have seen others that aren't. The same is true for Soshu and Yamashiro blades. This sword looks good and has a great history I am sure it is much better in hand. Would I pay X million for it, even if I could, no because there is other work that appeals more. Thank goodness we are all different or wouldn't life be boring.

However to help others and to understand why we like something it sometimes helps to say more than "I like it" and explain what makes it exceptional to me/you.

[SAS]

Good points Paul; my rationale for my "Wow!" is just the feeling the hamon evokes in my soul. As a smith, and understanding something of what it would take to produce a masterwork of this caliber, I am moved emotionally by the wild unrestrained character of the hamon and the graceful curve of the sugata. It also reminds me of one of my favorite fishes, the saltwater bigeye, which has a red and silver camouflage pattern reminiscent of this hamon. Strange, I know. Regarding quenching without clay, it is very interesting what the vapor jacket effects do to hamon, but potentially risky to a lot of hard work, particularly using modern steels.

[SteveM]

Hello:

 What an interesting thread!  Three quick questions/observations:

 1. Piers mentions a rationale for sale as possibly being connected to crippling "yearly taxes". Does Japan have a net wealth tax as do several European nations? Perhaps it is specific to Government designated items such as National Treasures and the like?

 

There is no annual tax imposed on an asset like this in Japan. There are storage requirements imposed on national treasures, so these storage requirements may be something of a burden. The usual capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes apply if/when ownership of the item is transferred. The amount mentioned is correct, but slightly less now in US$ due to the slight strengthening of the dollar vs. the yen in the past couple of weeks. 

 

Article in the local Jōetsu paper↓

https://www.joetsutj.com/articles/37390279

 

Edit: Just reading some of the comments in that paper...seems a lot of the local people are opposed to this purchase. One person questioning why the owner is selling the item instead of loaning it to the local museum, considering that up until now the owner loaned it to the Okayama museum. 

[Chango]

Yeah it's a beautiful blade but I'm guessing the majority of the pricetag is due to it's illustrious provinence... imagine owning a sword linked directly to one of the most famous warlords of the Sengoku era!

 

That's the interesting part to me anyway...

[Guido]

Yeah it's a beautiful blade but I'm guessing the majority of the pricetag is due to it's illustrious provinence...

 

In 2005 (IIRC), I was offered a Ōmiya Morikage by a Japanese dealer; that sword came as a battle prize to Uesugi Kenshin, and remained in the Uesugi family for centuries. It came in a very old wooden box that was stored in an almost as old black lacquer box with the Uesugi kamon. The jūyō papers confirmed the story behind it.

 

50,000 US$. I had to pass. In 2006, that dealer put it up for auction at Christie's in London - it remained unsold.

 

A very fine sword that would have fit right into my collection, and I would have loved to own it, but no one was willing to pay almost double the "regular" price. Great provenance, exciting story of how it came into the possession of Kenshin, but there's a limit for how much one is willing to pay because of who owned it. It simply wasn't in the same league as the Yamatorige.

[Bugyotsuji]

SteveM "There is no annual tax imposed on an asset like this in Japan. There are storage requirements imposed on national treasures, so these storage requirements may be something of a burden. The usual capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes apply if/when ownership of the item is transferred."

 

Just went back to check my sources on this as I do not want to be called out in public!

 

Apparently this sword would be considered liable to Koteishisanzei, 固定資産税 ie property tax, like a house or a Porsche (if it is declared to the tax authorities). The source said that the owner of such a sword would be expected to pay taxes yearly on it to the tune of 数百万円, ie "several tens of thousands of dollars". The way to avoid this is, as was said above, to lend it to a museum. This tax is not because it is Kukuho National Treasure, but because it is a possession of value.

 

On the other hand, a Kokuho is not liable for tax at point of sale. You can only sell one though, if the central government, the prefectural government, the town and the village have all turned you down first. Mrs Oxxxxx offered it repeatedly to Okayama Prefecture, but they turned her down. Now some citizens are complaining that this artefact should never be leaving Okayama as it is a tourist draw and worth much more to the city in the long run. The Prefectural Museum has nothing else of value to show people it is also even being whispered!

[Guido]

May I ask what your source is, Piers? To my knowledge, fixed property tax is only levied on land, houses and buildings, and tangible business assets.

[Bugyotsuji]

 

A very rich friend who knows the ins and the outs of the system, Guido. Perhaps the best way to solve this might be to call the tax office and ask them directly!

[SteveM]

Or, we can google national tax office!

 

http://www.tax.metro.tokyo.jp/shitsumon/tozei/index_o.htm

 

Land, buildings, or depreciable assets. This sword wouldn't fall under any of those categories. A Porsche could be a depreciable asset, but automobiles are subject to another tax, so they are excluded from fixed asset taxes. Even if the sword were somehow construed as a depreciating asset, the sword's book value would reduce every year until it eventually reached "zero", and the lady would owe no taxes on the sword because it would be deemed valueless. (← but this wouldn't happen with an antique sword like the one in question).

 

Not meaning to call you out publicly Piers, but there was a question above on this point and it caught my interest. With regards to the rich friend, this may be a case where lack of knowledge of obscure things like swords (and taxes!) causes people to make strange assumptions. (For example, so many Japanese people seem to think you need a special "sword license" before you are allowed to buy a sword...).

 

Anyway, I've never owned a national treasure, so if there is an even more obscure twist in the tax code that renders these things taxable, I will happily stand corrected. Sorry to take the thread slightly down this side alley. 

[w.y.chan]

Even if you can afford to buy this I'm not sure you are allowed to take it out of the country and might have to be held at a museum.

 

 

Wah

[Bugyotsuji]

I know the curator at the Prefectural Museum where the Sanchomo is kept, so I will ask him.

[Guido]

Even if you can afford to buy this I'm not sure you are allowed to take it out of the country and might have to be held at a museum.

 

To quote myself:

 

In 1950 the bunkazai-hogo-hō 文化財保護法 took effect, in which important artwork of exemplary artistic and historic significance can be designated as jūyō-bunkazai 重要文化財 ("important cultural property") and kokuhō 国宝 ("national treasure"). At present ca. 900 swords are designated jūyō-bunkazai, and out of those 122 are kokuhō. Although anybody - including non-Japanese - can own such an item, it has to remain in Japan under penalty of law. If such a sword is sold, the government reserves itself the right to buy it for "a fair market price". Only if this right is waved, a private person can buy it.

[Guido]

A friend of mine used to own a jūyō-bunkazai, and it was kept by a sword dealer.

[Jean]

Better safe

[Keiji]

I wrote a short article on "Hadaka yaki" last year, excuse me if it's in Italian (I think for to see the pictures you need to register at the forum): http://www.intk-token.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=8879

 

I invite you to open website posted by Diego on Sugita sensei.

 

Video about hadaka yaki by Sugita sensei (4 videos): 

 

Video about hadaka yaki by Yoshihara sensei:

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Back to Steve's assertion above, I am coming reluctantly to the conclusion that my previously iron-clad informant may be wrong here. Sadly he is not a person to argue with, so I will keep schtum on this. Despite other assertions on the internet as to the existence of such a tax, the owner of a Juyo Bijutsu sword here has assured me that he is not liable for such a tax. The curator at the Okayama Prefectural Museum seemed unsure but pretty positive that there was no tax-avoidance issue involved in lending a private sword to a museum. So to Steve, and also to those up in the peanut gallery who took my side, I must apologize and eat crow/humble pie. (I tried to translate that expression for my sword teacher in the car yesterday!)