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Gunto Repair Teams


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Sorry guys I'm out of this 4th dimension discussion. You speculate about what can not be proofen. A gunto repair team is what the name says a repair team and even not a mobile tosho who made wonder swords which cut better than nihonto from things lying around the battlefield. 

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1 hour ago, 16k said:

This is why I wonder whether those famous spring steel swords aren’t our very obvious NCO Gunto...

JP,

I don't think they could have found enough old automobiles to scavenge enough springs to make 180,000 Type 95s.  Are you saying, instead, that the factories that made 95s could have been using the same raw steel that auto manufacturers were using to make springs?

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I really fail to see what the problem is here. As collectors we see all sorts of variations on the type 98 shin-gunto, and indeed the rinji seshiki, some of them well provenanced though very odd indeed . We have documentation and references for swords being made in China for the IJA, not "field made" but made in factories and workshops appropriated by the IJA and manned by sanctioned skilled professionals sent out from Japan by the Army..... Fuller and Gregory mention a factory in Peking/Beijing banging the buggers out made from Chinese rail stock.  We have documentation and references for Seki factories  using old rail track in Japan as well.  Ohmura  has a whole section about the blades made from lorry springs

 

Why are people getting their knickers in a twist over this.... There was a war on, raw materials were in short supply, and the priority was rifles aeroplanes and artillery not swords !

 

I could say more, but I am trying not to wind people up or be insulting or personal about this. It's not a radical theory, it's a matter of record!

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There are a ton of oddities as you state, Dave. It is a shame we will never really be able to distinguish these. Some are well made, some not so... just thinking about that appallingly crude sword a few years ago which we all called fake (I was guilty), until some clever cookie realised it matched a tang rubbing one from F&G... I'll see if I can find that for prosperity.

 

The Chinese made swords are actually quite nice. A hot-stamp on the tang, decent fittings, consistent design. They were called fake for a long time too before people paid attention. Here are some pics, just for interest. They don't really add to this topic much. Apologies for the sword being on the floor. We were all novices once and I did not realise it was disrespectful at the time.

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Ah, found that sword I remembered (or another example anyway)! Would immediately be dismissed on first glance, but it's a nice example of a Java made sword, produces at the steelworks garrison town in central Java. Shiyawaka Sumara.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

JP,

I don't think they could have found enough old automobiles to scavenge enough springs to make 180,000 Type 95s.  Are you saying, instead, that the factories that made 95s could have been using the same raw steel that auto manufacturers were using to make springs?

Now, I’ll admit it’s an argument I hadn’t considered! 🤣

 

... and down the drain goes my theory! 

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5 hours ago, Dave R said:

Why are people getting their knickers in a twist over this....

I could say more, but I am trying not to wind people up or be insulting or personal about this.

 

Dave why you say people when you want to hit me? 😉

Its like to stab someone from behind.😂

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12 minutes ago, vajo said:

 

Dave why you say people when you want to hit me? 😉

Its like to stab someone from behind.😂

Chris, I don’t think you should take it too personally! :)

 

Besides, isn’t it fun to discuss theories? Most knowledge starts like that. It points towards a possibility and then people have a whole field to analyze and prove or disprove it. :)

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4 hours ago, vajo said:

 

Dave why you say people when you want to hit me? 😉

Its like to stab someone from behind.😂

 

"I could say more, but I am trying not to wind people up or be insulting or personal about this" And that is what I meant, perhaps it's an English thing where we avoid being confrontational.

 

 Regarding what these swords looked like, there is a very high likelihood that two of them are shown here... 

repair team.jpg

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1 hour ago, Shamsy said:

Sorry Dave, did I miss something? Why are those swords likely the spring steel ones?

 

 Because these are two members of one of the repair teams we are discussing as having made their own swords, or had them made for them.

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 Personal experience, I have actually tried to forge a blade from an old lorry spring, and it is the very devil to work. The borderline between working heat and burning is very fine and it kept turning into a "sparkler". In the end I gave up and worked on other stuff like a couple of 15thC Western style sword guards in mild steel,which was much less frustrating. Old vehicle springs are very much the preferred option with a lot of ethic smiths as well.  Scrapped files tend to produce a brittle blade, but are more of the size for a blade, and need less forging. 

A lot of reenactment blades are made in the same spec' metal, but bought in as bar stock closer to the finished size and weight and I have a couple of these. In the UK it is called EN45, the EN standing for Emergency Number, a wartime initiative to standardise names between factories.

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Wow Chris!  That's some sophisticated software!  Did you have to choose the colors?  The reason I ask is the tassel on the left looks to be all brown, and the one on the right has a mottled look that practically looks like that zig-zag pattern on generals' tassels!  I know they were Gunzuko, but maybe the guy on the right was pretty high-level?  I can find out, because Guy, at Warrelics who posted the bio of the guy would likely know.

tassels.jpg

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Ok, got word back from Warrelics - Naruse Kanji, the guy on the right was a Sounin-kan, 4th or 5th class, which is the Gunzuko equivalent to Maj or Lt Col.  So the coloration of the tassel is likely due to sun reflection off of curves/wrinkles or some such thing.

 

Guy added another story of them surviving hand-to-hand combat from a massive attack on their position.  Post #7 on Page 2.

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1 hour ago, vajo said:

The sword he is carrying looks massive and long. I think it has over 80 cm nagasa. 

 

 One of the reasons I think it's a custom made "Spring To", old blades that size are rare, and usually very old as in Sengoku Jidai, or temple dedications.

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Which prompts me to ask a question:

 

i know that swordsmiths had a range of size to respect when making their blades and that a lot of older blades were suriage to conform to those size limits, but in case of a special order blade or an old family heirloom, could you take a blade of any size according to your preference to war?

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I think I remember Nick providing some archived directive that stipulated sword length, but quite evidently that was not adhered to, whether it was a shortage of blades and necessity or a simple choice to be lax in enforcement. There are examples of anything from o-tanto to hulking great tachi floating around in military mounts.

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13 hours ago, Shamsy said:

I tend to agree with John, more so because lengthy of swords was a personal preference. I'm not sure making a Spring-To dictates a particular length. Who knows though.

 

 I think if you were having a sword made in the field, you would have it made to any length you like or could handle. Personally I prefer them at the shorter length. 

 If I remember right Naruse Kanji was a martial artist, so his sword would be made or obtained to fit his preference and school .... A nice subject for someone to research in more detail?

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11 hours ago, vajo said:

The other sword is more Wakizashi lenght?

 

I would say the sword on the left is more "ordinary" size Shin gunto length where as the one on the right is HUGE. The sword on the right has at least 20 twist in the tsuka ito when a typical standard Shin gunto has perhaps 14 ?   (twist per side)

 

Dave M.

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