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Minamoto Sukekuni Mei ?


dwmc

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Hello NMB members,

 

I have been following the NMB for quite some time and would like to express my appreciation for the incredibly generous information shared here...Sincerely, Thank you!

 

This is a sword I purchased at an estate auction. I believe the mei translates as the topic title indicates "Minamoto Sukekuni." I've done as much online research as possible trying to determine which Sukekuni smith may have forged the sword.

 

The mei comparisons I've located online don't seem to suggest Showa, Shinto,or Koto Sukekuni's.

I'm thinking possibly Shinshinto Tobanshi Sukekuni, yet I have been unable to find a mei for comparison. If anyone should happen to have a Tenpo era Tobanshi mei it would be greatly appreciated.

 

If I am completely off on my current line of thinking as to which Sukekuni (Possibly gimei or other wise) please don't hesitate to indicate so...

 

Again my sincere Thanks...

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only one i found in MSI with Minamoto

 

SUKEKUNI (祐国), Kanbun (寛文, 1661-1673), Settsu – “Kii no Kuni-jū Sukekuni” (紀伊国住祐国), “Hanabusa Bizen no Kami Sukekuni” (花房備前守祐国), “Bizen no Kami Minamoto Sukekuni” (備前守源祐国), “Sukekuni” (祐国), “Hanabusa Bizen no Kami Minamoto Sukekuni” (花房備前守源祐国), he came originally from Kii province where he had belonged to the Ishidō school, later he moved to Ōsaka and received there the honorary title Bizen no Kami, gunome-chōji in ko-nie-deki with many ashi, also an ō-midare in tōran-manner, wazamono, chūjō-saku

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Stephen,

 

Thank you for you input...I would truly love for this blade to be one of Sukekuni's you mentioned. I have compared a few of their meis  from online examples and tried every way possible to convince myself it was one of them... unfortunately, I simply couldn't...

 

Again Thank You,

 

Dave M 

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Stephen,

 

Just wanted to follow up with a bit more explanation to my previous reply. I had also identified the Kanbun Sukekuni as the potential swordsmith you mentioned in your response. The tag attached to the sword in the photo, at one point I had written Fujiwara Sukekuni. The mei is very simular, but after

studying it at length, there where just too many differences. However, I would definitely appreciate telling me I'm wrong...

 

Thanks again,

 

Dave M

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  • 8 months later...

Hello again NMB members,

 

I posted this original information request back in Sept. 2016. I just wanted to follow up with anyone who may be interested as to what I have discovered.

Shortly after I had purchased the sword, my research indicated it as possibly Kanbun era 1661-1673 Sukekuni. I eventually dismissed this probability because the mei was slightly off from those I had located for comparison online...

Thus, I made a plea for help with NMB members in order to prevent myself going completely insane over the matter. Stephen (Oyabun) kindly provided me with information also indicating the Kanbun era Sukekuni of which I much appreciated, but promptly rejected as those among us that really have no business studying nihonto often do.

I thought due to the slight differences in mei, and the well preserved appearance of the nakago, this could not possibly be Kanbun era.

I've since come to the realization that nakago can be well preserved with file marks fairly intact, as for the mei, I couldn't begin to speculate what is 100% proof of sword smith signature, but am sure there are normally going to be slight differences, particularly in older blades.

Therefore, due the above observation, as well as sugata and additional  factors, I will return to Stephen's (Oyabun) original suggestion of the sword smith being that of the Kanbun 1661 Sukekuni .

 

Again, NMB site always appreciated..

 

Dave M

 

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Dave, as a car guy I can't help but notice the Corvette in one of the bottom pictures! Love it as a car guy.

 

I am a fan of Ishido school but not really well schooled as yet on mei and fine details (trying every day!). The kanbun era signatures don't match. The genealogy line I have for the later Sukenaga does not show a Sukekune branch. 

 

All that said, I am never ceased to be amazed when references fail to cover every honorific or signature possibility a smith may have had. 

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Jeremiah,

 

Thanks for the car compliment, thats my old C-4 corevette, fun to drive, truly love it.

 

Appreciate your sword input also. Yes, trying to match up sword smith mei (at least for me) is extremely difficult. There almost have to be varying signatures with sword smiths and a definite lack of comparison examples for sure.

 

Maybe at some point I can determine at least a 90% determination. I thinking the only other possibility is the Shinshinto smith, Tobanshi Sukekuni, as yet I have been unable to find a Mei for comparison...

 

Thanks Again,

 

Dave M

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Jeremiah,

 

Thanks for the car compliment, thats my old C-4 corevette, fun to drive, truly love it.

 

Appreciate your sword input also. Yes, trying to match up sword smith mei (at least for me) is extremely difficult. There almost have to be varying signatures with sword smiths and a definite lack of comparison examples for sure.

 

Maybe at some point I can determine at least a 90% determination. I thinking the only other possibility is the Shinshinto smith, Tobanshi Sukekuni, as yet I have been unable to find a Mei for comparison...

 

Thanks Again,

 

Dave M

I sent you a Private Message.

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  • 1 year later...

Hello NMB members,

 

This is a request I posted back in 2016 inquiring potential information regarding my sword with "Minamoto Sukekuni mei".

I had studied the mei for quite some time before posting on the NMB, and was fairly confident it was not Shinto Ishido school Sukekuni

due to the differences in signature I had located at that time.

Both Stephan (Oyabun) and Jeremiah (Vermithrax16) were both kind enough to respond with the opinion that it was in fact possibly Shinto Kanbun Sukekuni.

 Although I sincerely wanted to believe it was the Shinto smith as mentioned, Mei's simply didn't match up adequately.

Over three years have past, and I have still been searching for something that could possibly be conclusive evidence of which Sukekuni smith my sword could be.. According to Markus Sesko's Swordsmiths A-Z there are a Sukekuni's in in 1800's Shinshinto era but no Mei's I could locate for comparison.

 

I've faced many challenges through the years and I must admit becoming involved and interested in nihonto has been one of the most difficult. It is one of the most perplexing, confusing subjects I have ever encountered. I've become comfortable in the realization I simply lack the intellect to gain even a reasonable understanding of the subject. However, I still try to learn what I can and sincerely appreciate the NMB members and your information...

 

At long last, and for what reason I can't even begin to imagine, a Mei has shown up that I can reasonably conclude as Ishido school Sukekuni. I believe the signatures are actually close enough to be a match. 

 

Thanks Again to Steven and Jeremiah,

 

Lower right Sukekuni,

 

Dave M'post-2175-0-39938500-1549216573_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

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Hello Dave,

 

Here is an authenticated Ishido Sukekuni 備前守源祐國 (Bizen-no-kami Minamoto Sukekuni). I attach the original plus the certificate for your reference.

The one I am posting has some variances with the one from the book or catalog you posted, which only shows that there is a range of acceptability in how he inscribed his name. Pictures of your blade itself would probably help, because going over the minutiae of the kanji characters probably won't produce satisfactory results in this case. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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IMHO far too much concentration on the mei amd not enough on the blade.  The kanji on Dave's sword is clumsy cf the elegance of Steve M's papered example above.  On the scant evidence so far I would opine this is a Shinshinto blade or possibly even a Showa era production.  I have seen clearly Showato blades with 17th century mei...  Let's talk more about the blade, and Dave, you really need to get this sword to more experienced eyes in hand.

 

Best regards,

BaZZa.

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Thank you both Steve and Bazza,

 

Steve's photo's of the authenticated Ishido Sukekuni mei is precisely what has led me to believe my sword was not the Shinto Kanbun Sukekuni. Even I can easy see the lack of simularitly between signatures. Then, I find the Sukekuni mei in the book photo I posted (at least to my eye) actually very similar. Also, in Markus Sesko's Nihon-Shinto-She book (page #103) there is an example of the Ishido Sukekuni smith's mei which appears quite similar to my sword and also the example in the catalog picture I posted. The Sukekuni sword in Markus's book is very similar in sugata, nakago and yasurime to my sword (photo's in post #6).

                                                                                                                                                                                             

 Bazza, the signature on my sword looks clumsy to me also. The sword has  been in the hands of one of most respected Togishi in the San Francisco Bay area. I had an opportunity to talk with him for 1/2 hour or so. He didn't indicated it was possibly gimei or other wise. However, he did mention it may be worthy of polish but would require further study.

I am very fortunate to have an excellent Togishi within a few hours of my present location and have been meaning contact him. I definitely shall in the near future..

 

Again, Thank you both for your input !

 

Dave M.

 

 

 

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Thanks Jeremiah,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               I'm not entirely sure we can rule out Ishido school Sukekuni. My sword will eventually need to go to shinsa for a more definitive evaluation.The sword is in just enough polish to see a narrow Gunome hamon, Ko-maru boshi, and an extremely tight Hada, possibly Ko-Itame, practically Muji. 

 

Honestly though, I'm a bit afraid the sword would be bumped out of Shinsa due to lack of adequate polish.

 

I've found quite a range of differences in what I consider potential Kanun Sukekuni mei's. The one Steve M. posted, those more like my sword, and the one I posted in the sword catalog. The thing that struck me most in similarity between my sword and the catalog/book mei is the "Kuni" kanji character. 

I notice on the vertical (mune side) stroke and the bottom horizontal stroke, the horizontal stroke ends above the vertical stroke. I feel this has to be more than mere coincidence. The Shinto Sukekuni signatures which are more similar to my sword all seem to vary some what. They seem to be a bit more "clumsy" as Bazza mentioned. It seems odd a smiths signature could have this many slight variations. I am unable to read the catalog/book photo I posted beyond the Sukekuni attribution and (I think) I'm also seeing Enpo 2nd year 8th month ?

 

I'm in to deep to give up now. I'll press on and take the sword to the next step...Will post what I find for any one who may be interested.

 

Best Regards,

 

Dave M.

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  • 2 years later...
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