Kai-Gunto With Koto Blade

[Bruce Pennington]

Have been doing some research in an effort to narrow down a possible date range for this Koto era blade I picked up when I bought this Kai-gunto. I didn't originally want it, because it looked like it must have lain in a swamp for a couple of years (saya worn, fittings missing most of the gold guilding); but 3 things sold me on it: 1) It has the sharkskin saya upgrade, 2) Family mon on the menugi, and 3) old Koto blade.

 

What I've learned so far (some from the seller, some from this site:http://meiboku.info/guide/form/zukuri/index.htm

 

Nakago Jiri (end shape): Kuri (only style used up to 1400)

Sugata (blade form): Shinogi Zukuri (Periods after Heian)

Sori (point of blade where pronounced curve begins): Kashi Zori, also called Bizen Sori (Bizen School started 1185)

Hamon: Suguba

Kissaki: Chu Kissaki: most common; used from mid-Kamakura period (1185-1333, so 1260ish)

Mune has fumbari - back edge of blade is fattest mid-nakago and gradually tapers all the way to tip

 

So the youngest date: 1596

Earliest date: Mid-Kamakura (1260ish) or if Mino School then 1300.

 

Range: 1300 - 1596

 

Open to any and all inputs!!!

[Kai-Gunto]

I think prox.1600

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Bruce, from what I can make out, the Kamon looks like hanging Wisteria, it's known as  Sagari Huji.

 

If on your close inspection there is a ring around the central form then it would be Maru ni Sagai Huji, however from what I can make out, it is the former not the latter.

 

Just to liven things up, as I could not see how it sits on the Tsuka when worn , there is a possibility it is the reversed form which is called Agari Huji

 

Agari / Sagari  whatever, it's definitely Huji Wisteria

Cheers

[paulb]

Bruce

Your analytical apporach is absolutely the right way to try and assess this but I think there are a couple of inaccurracies in what you have described.

An increase in sori towards the kissaki (saki-sori) is a feature which typically appears in later Koto work. When doing kantei it is one of the pointers away from kamakura period pieces towards nambokucho and later. Some earlier works have Uchi-sori where the blade straightens or even droops towards the ha. This is especially seen in tanto but is also notable in mid kamaukura daito and earlier work.

You mention fumbari in relation to the thickness of the blade. I have only ever understood it to refer to a rapid change in the width of a blade occurring in the first few inches from the nakago. It is, or the lack of it is, a good indicator that an early blade is shortened.

On shape and the colour and texture ofthe nakago I would guess your blade to be no earlier than 1500 and more likely to be shinto. However it wouldnt be the first time I have been hopelessly wrong.

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi Bruce, from what I can make out, the Kamon looks like hanging Wisteria, it's known as  Sagari Huji.

 

If on your close inspection there is a ring around the central form then it would be Maru ni Sagai Huji, however from what I can make out, it is the former not the latter.

 

Just to liven things up, as I could not see how it sits on the Tsuka when worn , there is a possibility it is the reversed form which is called Agari Huji

 

Agari / Sagari  whatever, it's definitely Huji Wisteria

Cheers

Malcolm, As far as I can see there is no ring around the wisteria, and it sits on the outside as the gunto is worn.

 

So what does "Sagari Huji" mean? Is that a name?

[Bruce Pennington]

Bruce

Your analytical apporach is absolutely the right way to try and assess this but I think there are a couple of inaccurracies in what you have described.

An increase in sori towards the kissaki (saki-sori) is a feature which typically appears in later Koto work. When doing kantei it is one of the pointers away from kamakura period pieces towards nambokucho and later. Some earlier works have Uchi-sori where the blade straightens or even droops towards the ha. This is especially seen in tanto but is also notable in mid kamaukura daito and earlier work.

You mention fumbari in relation to the thickness of the blade. I have only ever understood it to refer to a rapid change in the width of a blade occurring in the first few inches from the nakago. It is, or the lack of it is, a good indicator that an early blade is shortened.

On shape and the colour and texture ofthe nakago I would guess your blade to be no earlier than 1500 and more likely to be shinto. However it wouldnt be the first time I have been hopelessly wrong.

Paul

I appreciate your comments, as I'm learning as I go with this! Maybe your eye on the curve is better than mine, but to me it looks like the deepest part of the curve is closer to the nakago end. I only have one source, the website listed above, but doesn't that make it a Kashi-sori?

 

On fumbari, I was puzzled by that too, as this website uses the term in reference to the width of the blade as it's laying flat. I'll post the description from the seller where he uses it in reference to the thickness looking down at the back edge. It really is peculiar! The nakago thickens from the machi back to the jiri, so much that the habaki won't slide off without litterally bending it! After re-reading his notes, I see that he actually does state it could be late Koto or early Shinto.

[paulb]

Hi Bruce

Sorry I misunerstood your comment regarding sori

basic terms used are

Koshi Sori deepest part of the curve nearest or in the nakago

Tori sori deepest point of curve in the centre of the blade

Saki sori usually refers to an additonal "kick" of curvature between the mid point and the kissai

Uchi sori reverse curvature where the top section straightens or drops down towards the kissaki.

 

Regarding Fumbari I have never heard it refering to thickness, doesnt mean it's wrong but certainly I am only aware of it being used to describe a very specific feature which is the rapid reduction in width between the hamcchi and the next few inches of blade.

 

Reduction in thickness can simply be a result of polishing where the blade increasingly becomes thinner than the nakago.

Looking at the nakago on your sword and accepting you shouldn't judge colour on a screen, it looks very red. Older nakago tend to move from reddy brown to a much deeper purple/black as the iron oxide cahnges form. I have attached a couple of images of blades that date from  the Kamakura and early nambokucho. Even though some of  these have been shortened so the nakago was originally blade steel they're a much darker colour than your blade

Hope this helps.

 

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Bruce 

 

Sagari means falling or hanging down.

 

Huji (Fuji) means the flowers of the Wisteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisteria).

 

Maru ni means a circle around a Kamon i.e. contained within.

 

And just for good measure Agari means rising or ascending.

 

Pip Pip Cheerio

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi Bruce 

 

Sagari means falling or hanging down.

 

Huji (Fuji) means the flowers of the Wisteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisteria).

 

Maru ni means a circle around a Kamon i.e. contained within.

 

And just for good measure Agari means rising or ascending.

 

Pip Pip Cheerio

Ok, so is it correct to say the mon is for the "Fuji" family name?

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi Bruce

Sorry I misunerstood your comment regarding sori

basic terms used are

Koshi Sori deepest part of the curve nearest or in the nakago

Tori sori deepest point of curve in the centre of the blade

Saki sori usually refers to an additonal "kick" of curvature between the mid point and the kissai

Uchi sori reverse curvature where the top section straightens or drops down towards the kissaki.

 

Regarding Fumbari I have never heard it refering to thickness, doesnt mean it's wrong but certainly I am only aware of it being used to describe a very specific feature which is the rapid reduction in width between the hamcchi and the next few inches of blade.

 

Reduction in thickness can simply be a result of polishing where the blade increasingly becomes thinner than the nakago.

Looking at the nakago on your sword and accepting you shouldn't judge colour on a screen, it looks very red. Older nakago tend to move from reddy brown to a much deeper purple/black as the iron oxide cahnges form. I have attached a couple of images of blades that date from  the Kamakura and early nambokucho. Even though some of  these have been shortened so the nakago was originally blade steel they're a much darker colour than your blade

Hope this helps.

 

Aoe4.gif

SHIKKA25.jpg

AWATAG27.jpg

Paul,

 

Multiple polishing let over a 400 year period just might do that! I found a decent pic of it. Also, a better pic of the Nakago. It's got a mix of orange and black:

[hxv]

Gentlemen,

 

To my untrained eyes, the nakago looks to be ubu.  I am also leaning toward shinto, probably Bizen from the nakago jiri (way out on the limb here).

 

Hoanh

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Bruce.,

 

I regret to say, we cannot assume that the Sagari Huji Kamon on your Kai Gunto means the Family Fuji.

 

Since the Bakumatsu and Meiji Restoration periods, the free usage of most Kamon apart from the Imperial Kamon has been pretty much a free for all.

 

However, Sagari Huji was once the Kamon of the Fujiwara:

 

Here's some enlightening information on the great clan:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujiwara_clan

 

It would be nice to have a direct link, but sadly anecdotal provenance is no provenance.

 

Without documented evidence like a surrender tag with a name and address, the Kamon has no firm link to a specific Family.

 

Cheers

[Alex A]

Hi Bruce, is it my eye or is there a change in patina on the nakago towards the habaki?

 

Also, is there any indication as to if the hamon is ending or heading down the nakago?

 

Also, whats the nagasa? + overall length?

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi Bruce.,

 

I regret to say, we cannot assume that the Sagari Huji Kamon on your Kai Gunto means the Family Fuji.

 

Since the Bakumatsu and Meiji Restoration periods, the free usage of most Kamon apart from the Imperial Kamon has been pretty much a free for all.

 

However, Sagari Huji was once the Kamon of the Fujiwara:

 

Here's some enlightening information on the great clan:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujiwara_clan

 

It would be nice to have a direct link, but sadly anecdotal provenance is no provenance.

 

Without documented evidence like a surrender tag with a name and address, the Kamon has no firm link to a specific Family.

 

Cheers

Thanks Malcolm, interesting read! I have seen a few gunto over the past year with the wisteria mon, which I thought was odd, and someone mentioned on a thread somewhere, that by WWII, an officer buying a gunto at the club was shown a book of available mon and could literally pick whichever one he wanted. Now, as I wrote that, it did occur to me that if a guy NOT named Fuji/Fujiwara picked a "Fuji" mon, other officers in his unit would question him and give him crap about it. Knowing how "face" and/or shame played a powerful role in the culture, I would be very surprised if a guy would risk such getting caught with a fake mon.

 

I wish I knew more about the customs of the day. Is it possible a guy, with now Samuri lineage, would pick a mon and say "I've picked Fuji in honor of the great So-and-So Fujiwara. May his spirit guide my hand in battle."????

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi Bruce, is it my eye or is there a change in patina on the nakago towards the habaki?Also, is there any indication as to if the hamon is ending or heading down the nakago?Also, whats the nagasa? + overall length?

Alex, I'm afraid I'm on the road and won't be home for a few days. I'll find out when I return and post answers!

[SteveM]

 Is it possible a guy, with now Samurai lineage, would pick a mon and say "I've picked Fuji in honor of the great So-and-So Fujiwara. May his spirit guide my hand in battle."????

 

No. The family crest is inherited from the previous generation. Typically it will get put on kimono, gravestones, buddhist alters in homes, and other places depending upon how much "bling" you like. There is no law saying you can't change your family crest, but it would be unusual, to say the least, that an officer would discard his family crest in favor of one belonging to someone he idolized. 

 

The fuji crest is common. As Malcom says, it originated with the Fujiwara, and this mon shows up now in a lot of families, both those claiming (hoping) to be direct descendants of the original Fujiwara, and those of branch families, as well as completely unrelated families. In any event, it hints at a noble past, and so any family would be proud to have this crest, I would think.

 

Finally, a few crests are so common that manufacturers of items with family crests can carry stock of those items and always be assured there will be some customer for it. The fuji crest is one of them. Think of the souvenir key-chains you find at tourist sites...you can always be sure to find one that says "James" or "Robert" or "Steve". But if you have an unusual name you might have to special order it. It is the same with family crests. I don't know how the crests on these military swords were ordered, but I can imagine certain, common crests were mass-produced, while more unique crests had to be special-ordered. This is just pure speculation on my part, however. 

[nagamaki - Franco]

Dimensions, please & thank you?

[Bruce Pennington]

Dimensions, please & thank you?

Franco, I'm on a road trip. It will be Thursday before I can get the measurements and post them. Sorry!

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello Bruce,

 

No worries. From looking over images again this morning I see evidence of a Koto sword, and that its last polish wasn't very good. A properly made habaki should fit over a wider nakago without touching and still fit perfectly tight if properly made.

[Bruce Pennington]

Hello Bruce,

 

No worries. From looking over images again this morning I see evidence of a Koto sword, and that its last polish wasn't very good. A properly made habaki should fit over a wider nakago without touching and still fit perfectly tight if properly made.

Also, the kissaki looks like it must have been damaged at some point and reshaped.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ok, lots of new pics! I was surprised when I found out how to properly measure the sori, I have been looking at it wrong and it is very slightly Saki Sori - the deepest part of the bend is 1" forward (toward the tip) of center!!! The website I've been referencing comments that sakisori was popular during the Muromachi period (1392-1572). However that doesn't prevent someone later, like Shinto, from liking and using the style.

 

Dimensions:

 

Nagasa: 26" (66cm)

Full length: 34 3/8 (87.3cm)

Sori: 17/36 (1.19cm) @ 12" from tip (center would be 13")

[SwordGuyJoe]

Looks Shinto IMO

[Bruce Pennington]

The nakago has feint Kiri-style file marks, and even the nakago-mune has file marks decernable

[Jamie]

I think it's later than koto. But I'm judging on pictures of the patina. And the small amount of other info. Unless you buy from a pretty informed dealer with very good reputation then I would just assess the sword yourself. I'd be happy to look it over in person for you, we're both in co I think.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Moto-haba, Moto-kasane, Sak-haba, Sak-kasane?

 

Thank you?

Edited September 30, 2016 by nagamaki

[Jean]

Lapsus calami, Franco, saki haba and not sake

[nagamaki - Franco]

 Oooops! Copy and pasted from a published sword record sheet.

[Bruce Pennington]

I think it's later than koto. But I'm judging on pictures of the patina. And the small amount of other info. Unless you buy from a pretty informed dealer with very good reputation then I would just assess the sword yourself. I'd be happy to look it over in person for you, we're both in co I think.

Jamie, check your PM's for possibly getting together.

[Bruce Pennington]

Moto-haba, Moto-kasane, Sak-haba, Sak-kasane?

 

Thank you?

Franco, I'll have to buy a measuring caliper, but I'll do that soon and post the measurements!

[Bruce Pennington]

Moto-haba, Moto-kasane, Sak-haba, Sak-kasane?

 

Thank you?

Franco, I'm still rough on the difference of Haba and Kasane, so I'm calling "A" the measurement of the mune, and "B" the measurement of the widest part at the shinogi:

 

Moto-haba "A": .533cm

Moto-kasane "B": .61cm

Saki-haba "A": .406cm

Saki-kasane"B": .514