This Week's Edo Period Corner

[estcrh]

Eric, You must read Perrin's book called 'Giving up the Gun'. Far from going mad over guns, the Tokugawa rounded up the gunmakers from the various han and set them up in Nagahama (those in Sakai being already under their control). They then only allowed orders that the Teppo Bugyo agreed to, effectively reducing them to almost nothing. They also granted small pensions to the defunct gunmakers to try and stop them running off to their original places of work. By the mid 1700's the trade was all but dead apart from odd orders by the Tokugawa themselves.

Ian Bottomley

Ian, what I was thinking about was the period before the introduction of European firearms. Is there any evidence that the Japanese used or made the types of pole and hand cannons pictured here or did they only take notice of firearms when introduced to the European types prior to the Edo period. Giving up the Gun sounds interesting, I will put it on my ever growing list.

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, the standard story is that the Japanese showed little interest in pole/hand gonnes until a Chinese/Portuguese ship arrived in Tanegashima in 1542/3 with two splendid examples of fully-working plug-and-play guns. The reasons for the lack of interest given vary, from the lack of an enthusiastic sponsor at the top of the pecking order, the lack of reliable sources & supplies of gunpowder, to the perceived superior efficiency of weapons that they already had.

 

There are references in earlier texts to use of these earlier pole weapons, but they never really seem to have caught on. You can see examples in Miyazaki Hayao's animation Princess Mononoke-hime.

 

Conversely, once the Lord Tanegashima Tokitaka saw their efficacy, and the Japanese learnt the techniques of manufacturing these new guns, especially the Bisen screw for the base of the barrel, their manufacture spread like wildfire throughout the country.

[IanB]

Eric, There is some evidence that Lord Murakami Yoshikiyo took tentative steps to use copies of a Chinese gun that had arrived from China in 1510 at the battle of Udehara in 1548. If I remember correctly he had 6 guns and issued 3 rounds of ammunition to each gunner with strict instructions to discard the guns after the shots and get stuck in with their swords. I agree with Piers that there was an initial reluctance by the military to use them. It seems it was Oda Nobuhide (Nobunaga's father) who really started the ball rolling, ordering 500 guns from Kunitomo to equip his bodyguard when he visited his prospective father-in law. For a while they were regarded as prestige weapons and anyone who was anyone had to have one. This didn't last long and once they were issued to ashigaru, they began to be despised by the bushi - letters from Korea requesting supplies talk about sending only guns since no other weapon was needed. You also have to consider the mental change the bushi had to go through. Not only were they having to equip the ashigaru with good weapons and armour, but they also had to accept that their role had changed and that they had become, arguably, the most important element in the armies. This meant that the role of the bushi was now to support and protect the ashigaru in battle. It must have been very traumatic for them to play second fiddle. No wonder the Tokugawa set about de-gunning the country as soon as it was stable enough to do without them.

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

Eric, There is some evidence that Lord Murakami Yoshikiyo took tentative steps to use copies of a Chinese gun that had arrived from China in 1510 at the battle of Udehara in 1548. If I remember correctly he had 6 guns and issued 3 rounds of ammunition to each gunner with strict instructions to discard the guns after the shots and get stuck in with their swords. I agree with Piers that there was an initial reluctance by the military to use them. It seems it was Oda Nobuhide (Nobunaga's father) who really started the ball rolling, ordering 500 guns from Kunitomo to equip his bodyguard when he visited his prospective father-in law. For a while they were regarded as prestige weapons and anyone who was anyone had to have one. This didn't last long and once they were issued to ashigaru, they began to be despised by the bushi - letters from Korea requesting supplies talk about sending only guns since no other weapon was needed. You also have to consider the mental change the bushi had to go through. Not only were they having to equip the ashigaru with good weapons and armour, but they also had to accept that their role had changed and that they had become, arguably, the most important element in the armies. This meant that the role of the bushi was now to support and protect the ashigaru in battle. It must have been very traumatic for them to play second fiddle. No wonder the Tokugawa set about de-gunning the country as soon as it was stable enough to do without them.

Ian Bottomley

Ian, that makes a lot of sense, no one wants to become obsolete...then or now.

[estcrh]

I am sure that someone here can identify this object.

[hybridfiat]

An ancient suppository?

[watsonmil]

Dear Eric,

The missile fitted into a large Teppo , .... just the base portion. They were called " bohiya ". The central area just back of the nose cap down to the fins was wrapped with rope soaked in a flamable substance. The idea was that firing one of these missiles into a Castle roof as an example would set the building on fire. Piers posted a photo in this section , .... I think page 67 The samurai is carrying it over his shoulder in the photo # Rimgo598.jpg . ..... Ron Watson

[estcrh]

Dear Eric,

The missile fitted into a large Teppo , .... just the base portion. They were called " bohiya ". The central area just back of the nose cap down to the fins was wrapped with rope soaked in a flamable substance. The idea was that firing one of these missiles into a Castle roof as an example would set the building on fire. Piers posted a photo in this section , .... I think page 67 The samurai is carrying it over his shoulder in the photo # Rimgo598.jpg . ..... Ron Watson

Ron, I figured that you, piers or Ian would recognize what this was....in fact the only way I knew was from Piers picture, thats what I like about this forum...I just thought it was funny that I would see one right after reading Piers description.

[Bugyotsuji]

Dear Eric,

The missile fitted into a large Teppo , .... just the base portion. They were called " bohiya ". The central area just back of the nose cap down to the fins was wrapped with rope soaked in a flamable substance. The idea was that firing one of these missiles into a Castle roof as an example would set the building on fire. Piers posted a photo in this section , .... I think page 67 The samurai is carrying it over his shoulder in the photo # Rimgo598.jpg . ..... Ron Watson

Ron, I figured that you, piers or Ian would recognize what this was....in fact the only way I knew was from Piers picture, thats what I like about this forum...I just thought it was funny that I would see one right after reading Piers description.

 

*****One word of warning. Originals of these are very few and far between. There are some modern repros going around the markets recently, in an attempt to catch the unwary and capitalize pricewise on the rarity factor.

[estcrh]

Dear Eric,

The missile fitted into a large Teppo , .... just the base portion. They were called " bohiya ". The central area just back of the nose cap down to the fins was wrapped with rope soaked in a flamable substance. The idea was that firing one of these missiles into a Castle roof as an example would set the building on fire. Piers posted a photo in this section , .... I think page 67 The samurai is carrying it over his shoulder in the photo # Rimgo598.jpg . ..... Ron Watson

Ron, I figured that you, piers or Ian would recognize what this was....in fact the only way I knew was from Piers picture, thats what I like about this forum...I just thought it was funny that I would see one right after reading Piers description.

 

*****One word of warning. Originals of these are very few and far between. There are some modern repros going around the markets recently, in an attempt to catch the unwary and capitalize pricewise on the rarity factor.

Piers, I think that statement is true for just about anything rare and unusual.

[John A Stuart]

I can not see this projectile having much of a range considering blow-by even with double charges. I know there were dedicated grenade launchers early on in the 16th century, but, the rifle grenade in its' modern version propelled by blank cartridges was developed first by Col. Amazawa around 1904. I reckon these early devices may have led to his innovation. John

[Bugyotsuji]

John, somewhere I heard 300 meters up into the sky, and then free-fall down onto castle roofs

[John A Stuart]

That is far and away more than I expected, 60 meters. !!! John

[estcrh]

Dear Eric,

The missile fitted into a large Teppo , .... just the base portion. They were called " bohiya ". The central area just back of the nose cap down to the fins was wrapped with rope soaked in a flamable substance. The idea was that firing one of these missiles into a Castle roof as an example would set the building on fire. Piers posted a photo in this section , .... I think page 67 The samurai is carrying it over his shoulder in the photo # Rimgo598.jpg . ..... Ron Watson

Ron, I figured that you, piers or Ian would recognize what this was....in fact the only way I knew was from Piers picture, thats what I like about this forum...I just thought it was funny that I would see one right after reading Piers description.

 

*****One word of warning. Originals of these are very few and far between. There are some modern repros going around the markets recently, in an attempt to catch the unwary and capitalize pricewise on the rarity factor.

How can you tell the real from the fake without something to compare it to? See any clues?

[watsonmil]

Eric, ............. Remember to give credit where credit is due, .... .......... Ron Watson

[estcrh]

Eric, ............. Remember to give credit where credit is due, .... .......... Ron Watson

Ron spotted the nail heads as a possible give away but never having seen a close up picture of an authentic bohiya (bo hiya?) it is hard to say how the fins would have been attached.

here is a drawing of one being fired ( Ron pointed out the "ouch" very dangerous stance!) and it looks like his hand is tied to the weapon.... Looks like the same huge weapon Piers was showing us.

[Bugyotsuji]

That is a pretty accurate and informative print you have found there, Eric. It shows each Shashu in a different stage of the movements towards firing one. Thank you.

 

Yes, the left hand is lashed to the gun to help maintain grip.

[estcrh]

That is a pretty accurate and informative print you have found there, Eric. It shows each Shashu in a different stage of the movements towards firing one. Thank you.

 

Yes, the left hand is lashed to the gun to help maintain grip.

It was from this site, one more interesting picture there

from>>>> http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21151

[Bugyotsuji]

That one is in the National Museum of Japanese History in 'Sakura' (?)... Tokyo? So, fairly good chance of it being a real one then! :D

[IanB]

Here are another couple of bohiya. Note two small points: All these museum ones (that are presumed to be genuine), have the upper section considerably reduced in diameter to allow for the coiled rope. They also, for some reason that defeats me, have that section wrapped with paper. I have also read somewhere that some had the upper part in the form of a paper tube stuffed with powder and shredded hemp rags. The idea being that when ignited, by a fuze, it burst and sent smouldering rags all over the place. I've no idea where I read this so I cannot quote a reference. I also include another image of a guy firing one. He is also holding a plumb line to judge elevation.

Ian Bottomley

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

He is also holding a plumb line to judge elevation.

 

Great pic. Thanks for sharing.

[Bugyotsuji]

Nice find. Those are Nakashima School gunners. The end of the line may indeed function as a plumb line, but the first section is tied to the pan safety lid and wrapped around a finger of the left hand, so that it can be opened with an easy pull, to free up the right hand. Many of those larger guns have a hole in the pan lid for attaching such a line.

[estcrh]

Here are another couple of bohiya. Note two small points: All these museum ones (that are presumed to be genuine), have the upper section considerably reduced in diameter to allow for the coiled rope. They also, for some reason that defeats me, have that section wrapped with paper. I have also read somewhere that some had the upper part in the form of a paper tube stuffed with powder and shredded hemp rags. The idea being that when ignited, by a fuze, it burst and sent smouldering rags all over the place. I've no idea where I read this so I cannot quote a reference. I also include another image of a guy firing one. He is also holding a plumb line to judge elevation.

Ian Bottomley

Are they wearing muneate or dou?

[IanB]

Piers, Thanks for that point about the string to open the pan - something I have not heard of. On looking closely I think you are right that it isn't being used as a plumb line. Was I influenced by that scene in Kagamusha? Probably!!

Eric, These guys are wearing muneate. I hope the guy on the right lifted his head before firing otherwise I suspect the recoil might have re-arranged his features.

Ian

[Bugyotsuji]

Ian, I went and asked about the possibility of it also being used as a plumb line, but our leader said

the gunner would not be able to see it.

 

There were however as you know separate elementary elevation calculators to be used mainly with cannon.

[MrJones]

Interesting, Piers. I'm just imagining how I would use such a device, and guess that you'd hold the end of the line around the left hand finger as described, and then one could simply tug it to open the pan lid prior to firing, thus saving a few seconds of adjusting grip (and all its inherent effects on accuracy and timing of fire) and so on to do it with the right instead. Am I far off?

[Bugyotsuji]

Interesting, Piers. I'm just imagining how I would use such a device, and guess that you'd hold the end of the line around the left hand finger as described, and then one could simply tug it to open the pan lid prior to firing, thus saving a few seconds of adjusting grip (and all its inherent effects on accuracy and timing of fire) and so on to do it with the right instead. Am I far off?

 

No, you are spot on, Mr J. Balance and timing, yes. Part of the problem is the weight of one of these guns. You can grip the wasp-waisted butt end and hold the gun upright (think Native Americans on horseback) and then hug the gun against you to fix your match to the serpentine, but you can't open the lid at that moment for fear of the powder pouring back out of the pan; when you lower the muzzle to fire, almost all the weight rests on your left hand and arm. You have a couple of seconds before your muscles reach their agony limit. You can't really reach around comfortably to open the panlid with your right hand; it's possible, but the string had to be an attractive option.

[estcrh]

And now for something completely different...this sword? weapon or whatever you would call it was sold on ebay as a Su Yari mounted as a wakizashi. It is definitely not a yari, although is easy to see how the seller made that determination due to the shape of the blade and the nakago, it could have been made by someone who was experienced with making yari. The blade is steel but displays no sign of hamon or hada and has a triangle shape which has no sharpened edges and the way it was made renders the point practically useless for piercing. The edges are not dull, they are purposely flat. All parts except possibly the very thick tsuba appear to have been custom made for this sword and I believe I know what purpose it was made for but I wanted to see if anyone else came to the same conclusion. The blade reminds me of a steel I beam. Here are some pictures and a link to a lot more. http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz238/estcrh/Triangle%20blade%20sword/

[IanB]

Eric, Wow that is an oddball. You certainly find them. My first thought was that it looks as if it has been made from a European bayonet of some type. I am guessing a length of about 20" or so? You have me there.

Ian Bottomley

[sanjuro]

Reminds me of a steel marlon spike......