Gun Show Find

[ice-hot]

Hello all,

Found a pretty decant Wak. koshirae at a local gun show and as a bonus there was a blade in it!

A bit of a strange one though to me. I have never seen one with this color tint to the steel. It has a blue tint when in the right light and angle (that of course I cant catch on camera) also the hamon seems to be in two places , very low on the ji and also right next to shinogi. Looks like old polish that someone tried to brighten up. Jihada looks odd to, with a kind of swirl or wave look to it. Hard to explain with my limited sword knowledge. So I have posted some images, any Ideas on what I have?

Thank you,

John

 

[Chango]

I'm new at this too and it's hard to tell from the pics but it doesn't look legit to me... more like a fake aging job gone wrong on a modern clone.

 

The kissaki especially looks horribly misshapen and totally wrong. Hope you didn't drop lots of $$$ on it anyway...

[Heringsdorf]

This blade doesn't look like a modern clone at all!

I would say this is an authentic nihonto, probably late muromachi period that had some rust damage, which somebody tried to remove unprofessionally.

[Greg F]

I believe it is old but not sure how old. I dont see 2 Hamon. Being an out of polish blade i would use uchiko and oil repeatedly to clear up the rust a little and show more detail. Koshirae seems ok but better pics would help get opinions. Cheers.

 

Greg

[nagamaki - Franco]

 It has a blue tint when in the right light and angle (that of course I cant catch on camera) also the hamon seems to be in two places , very low on the ji and also right next to shinogi.

 

Hello John,

 

Verbally, you're describing a retempered blade or at least one that has been exposed to excessive heat  (at least to me). Not uncommon. The sword pics also seem to support this notion. Although the image is somewhat out of focus the tsuka looks to have modern wrap and fittings at this point to my eyes. 

Edited September 23, 2016 by nagamaki

[Grey Doffin]

Hi John,

You should take in the show in Minneapolis (next door to North Dakota) next month and get some in hand appraisals.  I'd be glad to have a look for you.

Grey

[Mark S.]

I know photo angles can make things look a bit 'off', but it seems the hamachi is almost non-existant and the first few inches away from the hamachi has seen considerable damage/cleaning/??? and is almost concave in appearance vs the normal curve of the cutting edge.

 

Also... that isn't a tube of Flitz metal polish in the one pic... is it? Nah... couldn't be... Such cleaning methods are not recommended.

 

Mark S.

[Ray Singer]

I would agree with the comments that this appears to be an authentic sword, an osuriage mumei wakizashi. I am struggling to understand what is on the fuchi and kashira. With a bit of adjustment in Photoshop you can see the karakusa pattern, but the objects on top look equal parts Peony and Crab.

 

Suggestions for the mon on the menuki below. It would be great to see better, in focus photos of the sword and fittings. The menuki appear to consist of 3 mon placed on an elongated tablet shape, which is odd. The habaki also appears wrong to my eyes. 

[ROKUJURO]

To my eyes this looks like a legit blade that has seen a lot of corrosion and some non-professional grinding (with little success, but with material removed in  the wrong places).

The bluish tint may be the result of an anti-corrosion treatment. Some products can leave a very thin film which might look bluish in a certain angle.   

[Darcy]

Good opinions and I agree with most everything except the kissaki. Chip a kissaki and the repair can give you randomish shapes.

 

Blue tint: we suck at color. Our eyes as machines are no good for absolute judgment but are excellent at relative evaluation. Side by side one will be more blue and everyone will agree. Diamond graders do not look at a diamond floating on it's own but compare it to an absolute chart. My fathers car looks blue when it's cloudy out. Don't worry about colour unless you have 5 other polished known works to plunk it down against.

 

Make sure your room doesn't have blue wallpaper too.

[ice-hot]

Hello, and thanks for all the reply's.

Sorry for the delay between post, life and family got in the way.

After reading Franco's post about re-tempered and fire damaged swords, I did some research on the effects and look of fire damaged swords. I'm sure Franco is right about this blade. The slight blue tint and the cloudy swirly look of the hamon are the descriptions I find on fire damaged swords and that is how this blade looks. But the most telling was that the blade loses its temper and wont return to straight when bent a little. Well you can see by the pic. That is what happen after a slight push against the blade, nothing more than what might happen at Iado or during cutting practice. I was also able to bend it right back to straight to.

So it's a blade that has been in a fire, does that make it completely worthless? I don't think so. It may have been a decent blade before the damage, the tang is strong and well cut by the smith that shortened it, there is much damage to the blade, chips on the ha and kirikomi in the mune.(pics). It was used and depended on by someone or...some kids played Samurai or pirate with it. That we will never know for sure, but any way you look at it I now have a new blade to study and that's always a good thing. Anyway to put it to a school or a time with the damage?

As for the koshirae I'm sure the saya is new or newer it is in perfect shape and I love a Mother of Pearl saya, and in green, beautiful.  The tsuka is lacquered so it came very clean with a little soap and water, looks newer. The fittings are what Ray thought, Peony's and the menuki is exactly what Ray has pictured, the one numbered 320. I have never seen menuki quite like this, a straight bar with three straight bar Mons, maybe someone knows the family?

Grey, I will bring it to the show in October and if you would be so kind to look at this and the few others I have that would be much appreciated.

Flitz Mark, um what is that again?  Ok! Ok!...used a little on the mune and under the Habaki. Never do it again!    Shessh... tough crowd!   LOL!!

Thanks again for all the reply's,

John

 

[J Reid]

You bent your sword purposely?! ....

[Grey Doffin]

John,

Resist all impulses to bend, flex, repair, fix, whatever any of the swords until you can get advice from someone who has them in hand.  You don't know if this has been retempered; tough call to make just from pictures.  Put the blades aside and wait patiently for in hand advice at the show (it's less than a month away); don't do anything you might seriously regret later.

Grey

[J Reid]

Yes! What Grey said..

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello John,

 

Oh my! Sorry, to say the least. 

 

When it comes to nihonto it is wise to take things slow and careful. Yes, please, ask first before acting, because when it comes to nihonto you can get yourself into trouble in a big hurry. And, almost always there will be someone who has the experience to help guide and advise you through the situation without having to turn to taking more drastic steps. No need to cut your nose off to spite your face.

 

On a separate note, on the topic of heat damage, the unfortunate truth is that there are a significant number of nihonto in circulation which have been subjected to damaging heat including fires, and this subject has been well written about. In fact (long ago), I had just finished reading about how to "visually" identify a heat damaged sword in Yamanaka's Newsletters revised (if memory serves), when receiving a call to go view a signed nihonto for sale. Well, you guessed it, this sword had all the tell-tale signs described. 

 

Additionally, it should be noted, be aware, that swords can have heat damage only to one side of the blade. Which makes detection especially challenging. Then, there are retempered blades to top it all.

In some twenty five years of study I have run across examples of each, some more than once. Collecting nihonto is never easy.

[Brian]

Well, if it does turn out to be fire damaged, you bought a nice koshirae that has a blade instead of a wooden tsunagi. So you are still far ahead if the price was worth the koshirae alone

[Geraint]

Dear Brian,

 

I hate to be the one but.....  Have a closer look at the koshirae.

 

John, can we have a photo of the base of the fuchi?  That would probably confirm or rebut my suspicions.

 

All the best

[ice-hot]

Showed the blade to my sensei, he lived and taught school in Japan for 15 years and he thought it looked like fire damaged blades he had seen in Japan. He also mention the tsuba looks odd it may have been damaged from fire.

Added some more pics.

John

[nagamaki - Franco]

Showed the blade to my sensei, .... . He also mention the tsuba looks odd it may have been damaged from fire.

Added some more pics.

John

 

Agree, a dry, scaled, lifeless look to the metal. In which case it stands to reason the fuchi would have most likely gotten hot, the same looks sooty, too.