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Ogi-Ba (Fan Shaped Hamon) In Masamune Swords


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​Fellow enthusiasts,

​I hope everyone is doing well.

Marcus Sesko's informative book on Masamune shows a drawing is found on page 77 which is from Kokon Meizukushi Taizen  which shows the various elements found in Masamune blades including ogi-ba, (fan shaped hamon) .

There is even a guideline on page 76 that tells where the ogi-ba should be.

 

​Are there any Masamune sword photos out there showing ogi-ba? I had a question on ogi-ba and if it was supposed to be standing upright like Mr. Sesko's illustration or can it be leaning to one side? 

​Thank You very much, Stephen T.

 

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Hello Wah,

 

 

 

 

​Are there any Masamune sword photos out there showing ogi-ba? I had a question on ogi-ba and if it was supposed to be standing upright like Mr. Sesko's illustration or can it be leaning to one side? 

​Thank You very much, Stephen T.

 

 

Will be glad to look through the Masamune catalog and post/respond accordingly, if you could please post an image of the illustration of that of what you're seeking. Thank you.

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Hello Wah,

 

 

 

 

Will be glad to look through the Masamune catalog and post/respond accordingly, if you could please post an image of the illustration of that of what you're seeking. Thank you.

Franco,

Thank you for your reply!

 

I found today that Ishida Masamune has upright Ogi-ba. There are other Masamune like "Jo Izumi no Kami Shoji Masamune" that have fan shapes laying on their sides. I was wondering if that style ( on the side) is counted as ogi-ba hamon? I am attaching an illustration from Kokon Meizukushi Taizen. It shows two blade shapes drawn with examples of what elements you might find Masamune steel. To the far right are fan shapes on both upper and lower drawings.

I would still be interested to see other Masamune that have ogi-ba and other such features.

 

In studying some photos of Masamune , I have found in a few swords what appear to be Chrysanthemum in the steel itself. These kiku are not made by the tempering process but made in the steel. Has anybody ever heard of this? They are in Ishida Masamune and "Jo Izumi no Kami Shoji Masamune" and a couple others. These show the circular center and what looks like petals wrapping around the outside. Whether a regular Masamune element or meant to be there, it is very beautiful! 

Thanks again, Stephen T.

post-1183-0-97285300-1472436200_thumb.jpg

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Franco,

Yes, what you found does appear to be an ogi-ba. Thank You! I had not seen that one.

 

The leaning ogi-ba that I have a question about is found in the picture below. I have drawn directly onto the fan shape in the first picture to show location and in the next picture you can examine the original photo. The fan shape will be outlined by a tiny black concentrated line. There are other fan shapes.

 

The photo is from Fukunaka's Encyclopedia and the sword is "Jo Izumi no Kami Shoji Masamune"

 

Thank You,

Stephen T.

post-1183-0-49360500-1472520877_thumb.jpg

post-1183-0-80041300-1472520866_thumb.jpg

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Hi Stephen

 

That is a very low resolution image, but what you highlighted looks like a shape that is defined more by the hadori work than an actual artifact of the blade. On the left, the border is the outer limits of the hadori. On the right it is a line of nie arching out of the hamon becoming chikei. Perhaps others can see more here or there is an oshigata we can refer to. This seems quite different from the other example in one of the Hocho Masamune, with a fan-based structure extending from the hamon into the ji.

 

Best regards,

Ray

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Ray,

Sounds good, I think I understand. So this sideways fan shaped element, because of location would not be considered true ogi-ba. I found it interesting though that the steel of Masamune,  have many fan shaped elements. So, if an upright fan shape is found in an oshigata of Masamune, perhaps it can be considered a real ogi-ba.

Franco and Ray, thank you both very much!

Stephen T.

 

Hello Stephen,

 

Though uncertain having gone through the Masamune catalog there is an oshigata of one tanto on page 76 with what may be an upright Ogi-ba. It is interesting in that it stands alone above the suguha portion of the hamon. See what you think?

 

attachicon.gifogi ba.jpeg

 

Franco, you mentioned, "It is interesting in that it stands alone above the suguha portion of the hamon." This is the way its done in the oshigata of the lost Masamune so I think its correct. I could show it if given permission by the moderator, but I don't want to cause a stir. Just trying to find some Masamune answers quietly.  : )

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Stephen, thank you for bringing attention to ogi-ba, a new sword term and feature for myself. It's always a good thing to be reminded just how skillful and controlled the better smiths were. 

 

Franco,

  No problem. I find the ogi-ba very interesting also along with the other elements that can be found. Even though most of us can't hold the Masamune swords found in museums, we do have some pretty clear reference materials that show fine detail of these works. Fukunaka's Encyclopedia has clear shots, found here: http://www.tsuruginoya.net/stories/

 

We musn't forget to give a huge thanks to Marcus Sesko for his Masamune book which give us these "example illustrations" found in Masamune blades.

 

As for the Ogi-ba that you may want to see in the lost Masamune, please see the attachment. Look on the right side, I have photoshopped a black arrow.

This is a copy of the original oshigata called "Osaka Gyobutsu Meibutsu Token Oshigata" , original drawn in 1595.

 

Thank you,

 Stephen T.

post-1183-0-57065400-1472720668_thumb.jpg

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Friends,

  Earlier on here I mentioned kiku or flower shapes being in Masamune steel. I dont really know if he was trying to do this, but I've seen it in several Masamune blades. Is this the reason for the name of a Masamune sword and a sake drink called Kiku Masamune?

I didn't wish to leave you hanging so here are two in the Ishida Masamune.

I got this photo from the link I gave of Ishida Masamune. The first kiku I show is large and the second will be on the left and smaller which seems to have different petals. If anything, its interesting....

All the best,

Stephen. T

 

post-1183-0-13179700-1472777708_thumb.jpg

post-1183-0-74282100-1472777718_thumb.jpg

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Is this the reason for the name of a Masamune sword and a sake drink called Kiku Masamune?

 

According to the company website, the name "Masamune 正宗" is a play-on-words, because its alternate pronunciation of seishu sounds like another Japanese word meaning sake: seishū 清酒.

 

 

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Friends,

  Earlier on here I mentioned kiku or flower shapes being in Masamune steel. I dont really know if he was trying to do this, but I've seen it in several Masamune blades. Is this the reason for the name of a Masamune sword and a sake drink called Kiku Masamune?

I didn't wish to leave you hanging so here are two in the Ishida Masamune.

I got this photo from the link I gave of Ishida Masamune. The first kiku I show is large and the second will be on the left and smaller which seems to have different petals. If anything, its interesting....

All the best,

Stephen. T

 

Let me make myself clear. There is a Masamune blade called "Kiku Masamune".  Is this the reason it is called Kiku Masamune, because it has kiku flower shapes in the steel?

BTW, has anyone ever seen these flower shapes in Masamune's steel or is it a new discovery?

Stephen T.

 

PS. Mr. Moderator, can we have irrelevant posts removed?

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Hi Stephen,

 

    I do not recall a meibutsu Kiku Masamune, however there is a tanto known as the Kuki Masamune (named for a former owner). As far as the kiku you are seeing in the sword, I am doubtful that this was an intentional structure forged in the steel. What I am seeing there are chikei. While chikei can run with physical layers of steel, it can also cross the grain and take on shapes which are independent from the forging pattern. My point being that the pattern you see composed of nie in the ji is not necessarily a match to the forging pattern and most likely could not be controlled to execute such a specific shape as a kiku. The pattern of chikei also may change as the sword is polished down. With no insult intended, I view this more like seeing shapes in clouds or stars. With a complex enough base pattern you can pretty much see whatever you may be looking for.

 

Best regards,

Ray

 

 

Let me make myself clear. There is a Masamune blade called "Kiku Masamune".  Is this the reason it is called Kiku Masamune, because it has kiku flower shapes in the steel?

BTW, has anyone ever seen these flower shapes in Masamune's steel or is it a new discovery?

Stephen T.

 

PS. Mr. Moderator, can we have irrelevant posts removed?

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BTW, has anyone ever seen these flower shapes in Masamune's steel or is it a new discovery?

Stephen T.

 

 

 

Hello Stephen,

 

Surely you are not suggesting some of the top polishers ever known missed something as important as a distinct feature in some of the most significant swords ever made. Stephen, surely you are not suggesting that sword smiths from the time of Masamune who have devoted their life to reproducing the great works of the masters that came before missed something as significant as a distinct feature in the steel of some of the most significant swords ever made. Stephen, after just a few minutes in conversation with the polisher of the last sword I had restored it quickly became clear that he knew by heart every square millimeter of that sword. 

 

 

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Hi Stephen,

 

    I do not recall a meibutsu Kiku Masamune, however there is a tanto known as the Kuki Masamune (named for a former owner). As far as the kiku you are seeing in the sword, I am doubtful that this was an intentional structure forged in the steel. What I am seeing there are chikei. While chikei can run with physical layers of steel, it can also cross the grain and take on shapes which are independent from the forging pattern. My point being that the pattern you see composed of nie in the ji is not necessarily a match to the forging pattern and most likely could not be controlled to execute such a specific shape as a kiku. The pattern of chikei also may change as the sword is polished down. With no insult intended, I view this more like seeing shapes in clouds or stars. With a complex enough base pattern you can pretty much see whatever you may be looking for.

 

Best regards,

Ray

 

Hello Ray,

Thank you, I have heard of Kuki Masamune also. I heard of Kiku Masamune several years ago from a forum of some sort in Japan. I later contacted Mr. Adrian Schlemmer and he said he had a picture of the tanto in a book.  I didn't find out which book. :-?

These flower shaped chikei in the steel on this particular sword are probably not intentional I'll agree, but still interesting and I think they are another fine quality that sets Masamune apart. It seems many elements of Masamune swords identifies with Japan and its people making an enjoyable study. For instance, referring to the drawings in Kokon Meizukushi Taizen as shown above, the ogi-ba(fan shape), the tomo shape (top picture) right side, crescent moon shape (sometimes C shapes), tama (hardened spots), etc.

Thanks so much,

Stephen T.

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Hello Stephen,

 

Surely you are not suggesting some of the top polishers ever known missed something as important as a distinct feature in some of the most significant swords ever made. Stephen, surely you are not suggesting that sword smiths from the time of Masamune who have devoted their life to reproducing the great works of the masters that came before missed something as significant as a distinct feature in the steel of some of the most significant swords ever made. Stephen, after just a few minutes in conversation with the polisher of the last sword I had restored it quickly became clear that he knew by heart every square millimeter of that sword. 

 

attachicon.gifshe-loves-me-she-loves-me-not.jpg

 

Franco,  

 Haha, no I'm not suggesting the smiths or togishi don't know about distinctive Masamune features. I have seen only certain things written about and discussed, like the elements in the illustration. (fans, crescents and such)  I have not seen these "flower" shapes drawn or discussed anywhere. This makes me wonder if people see these "flower" shapes like I see them or if they see them as  "just another Masamune feature."

Does anyone know of any recent books in Japan that identify special features/elements in Masamune's steel?

 

 

Thank you,

Stephen. T

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  I have not seen these "flower" shapes drawn or discussed anywhere. This makes me wonder if people see these "flower" shapes like I see them or if they see them as  "just another Masamune feature."

 

 

Thank you,

Stephen. T

 

 

Stephen, 

 

It seems that you have answered your own question, except you're not willing to accept the answer.

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Hey Wah,

 

No problemo, thank you, too, you're welcome. Couldn't help but think about you seeing petals in the metal when reading this News article today, http://www.rawstory.com/2016/09/michelangelo-painted-a-secret-feminist-code-in-the-ceiling-of-the-sistine-chapel-says-new-study/ . Who knows, perhaps Masamune was forging some kind of a secret samurai code like Michaelangelo supposedly was doing in his painting.  :)

 

 

 

Kindest Regards,

Franco

 

 

 

 

 

 

There can only be true listening if there is complete attention, and there can only be complete attention if there are no expectations whatsoever in the mind. And that is by no means a simple matter. As a matter of fact, it is about the hardest thing to do. .............. . Ah, it's so difficult, so hard to do... this mind is so unruly... but knowing the difficulty, the unruliness, seeing it clearly without any further comment, is already attention. 

from "Attention, Attention, Attention" 
by Toni Packer in ZENBOW (Spring 1977)
 
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1. You are thinking of the Kikko Sadamune probably. Close enough to munge memory.

 

2. It's a turtle shell in the nakago

 

3. If anyone tries to sell you a Masamune with flowers in the hamon, run.

 

4. Flamboyant horimono is a Sadamune thing and most Masamune avoid any. Some like the Fudo horimono carry doubt for some authors. But there are no flowers there either.

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1. You are thinking of the Kikko Sadamune probably. Close enough to munge memory.

 

2. It's a turtle shell in the nakago

 

3. If anyone tries to sell you a Masamune with flowers in the hamon, run.

 

4. Flamboyant horimono is a Sadamune thing and most Masamune avoid any. Some like the Fudo horimono carry doubt for some authors. But there are no flowers there either.

 

Hello Darcy,

Its a pleasant surprise to hear from you.

 

1. I am thinking of a post that was written on a bbs Japanese forum. It gave the kanji "Kiku Masamune" sword and gave its history.

 

3. Why should you run if you see flower shapes?

 

The "Jo Izumi no Kami Shoji Masamune" has "flower shapes" or "flower looking elements". Please study pictures carefully. I have drawn on one picture to show location.

 

Sincerely, Stephen T.

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Hi Stephen,

 

I spoke with Adrian, who said that it is mostly likely the Kuki Masamune (九鬼正宗) you are referring to.

 

Best regards,

Ray

 

Hello Ray,

Thank you, I have heard of Kuki Masamune also. I heard of Kiku Masamune several years ago from a forum of some sort in Japan. I later contacted Mr. Adrian Schlemmer and he said he had a picture of the tanto in a book. I didn't find out which book. :-?

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