Odd Dots On Katana Blade Surface

[Daso]

Hello All,

 

I've been taking very good care of my Kiyomitsu and recently had the kissaki redone due to a smll chip at the tip.  I've  routinely inspected the sword (to learn about it) and while taking a close look at the hamon with a flashlight noticed these dots that wrap around a small (roughly 1 1/2") section of the blade of the blade from edge over mune to edge.  I tried wiping it down with a little alcohol in case it might have been adhesive from the work on the tip but it remains.  I always have the bvlade oiled and it lives in a nice temperature controlled apartment.  It is important to note that you can't really see this without shinning direct light on the area, it is almost invisible while inspectin the blade in normal light.  Not sure what I can do here, but knowing it is there bothers me and I guess it could always be polished at a later date. The sword itself is essentially flawless with a good (must be recent) polish.  I am scared of using any uchiko powder as I have never tried it before and don't even know if that is the appropriate action. I've also noted that the dots are very linear, almost in an angled line which seems like it couldn't have happened naturally. I don't want to9 sound overly obsessive about the blade, but it was not there before and I want to  make sure it doesn't get any worse or I can make it better.   Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Darius

 

 

[Taz575]

It almost looks like masking tape residue??  Is Goo Gone safe to use on Nihonto??  I doubt it since it is a citrus based cleaner, but it works great at removing adhesive residues.  More alcohol and elbow grease may be in order??

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Darius,

No idea what they are/what caused them; if they are masking tape residue they should have disappeared with the alcohol.  You could try uchiko but make sure you have a good quality uchiko (Bob Benson in Hawaii sells this).  Resist the urge to concentrate the uchiko in just this part of the blade; overuse in one area will make that area stand out.  If a few applications of the uchiko don't succeed in removing the spots then I think you have 2 options: get the sword to a properly trained polisher or live with them.  I would live with them.  If I had to guess, I'd say that the uchiko won't fix the problem, but you never know.

Grey

[ggil]

Nice blade to fiddle with. Be careful!

 

EDit: Agree with Grey: live with them, or was he saying to find a sword polisher to live with (apprentice to)? Either way, fully agree ????

[Daso]

Hi Darius,

No idea what they are/what caused them; if they are masking tape residue they should have disappeared with the alcohol.  You could try uchiko but make sure you have a good quality uchiko (Bob Benson in Hawaii sells this).  Resist the urge to concentrate the uchiko in just this part of the blade; overuse in one area will make that area stand out.  If a few applications of the uchiko don't succeed in removing the spots then I think you have 2 options: get the sword to a properly trained polisher or live with them.  I would live with them.  If I had to guess, I'd say that the uchiko won't fix the problem, but you never know.

Grey

Grey,  I have Bob Benson's kit sitting in my closet for fear of using it on an otherwise flawless blade.  I will likely live with it and should I have another sword polished in the future, send this along with it for a little touch up.  I'm going to take a super macro of the spot and post tonight.

 

Tazz, You are not the only person who thought it is masking tape residue, but I gave a fairly decent rub with the alcohol.  I didn't go crazy, but might try one more time with a bit more push and a cotton cloth.

 

I attached the katana itself to illustrate why I'm fearful of damaging the finish with my inexperience. 

[Taz575]

I used to make custom handles for Japanese kitchen knives.  I would always masking tape the blade and had to deal with this residue on many blades, including carbon blades like the White and Blue series steels, ones with iron cladding, etc.  Try a micro fiber cloth and the alcohol.  The tape should make the mf cloth grab a bit and may take some pressure to remove and several tries and more alcohol than you would think.  Goo Gone worked great and didn't discolor the carbon kitchen knife blades, but I would be extremely hesitant to use it on a sword.

[Prewar70]

Does your fingernail catch on it?  Seems like it should be easy to determine if it's tape and on the finish or in the finish.

[Daso]

Does your fingernail catch on it?  Seems like it should be easy to determine if it's tape and on the finish or in the finish.

James,  The dots are so fine you can't really feel them. I didn't want to touch the blade with my fingers too much (maybe I'm over cautious) i case it was any kind of rust and make it worse.

 

 

I used to make custom handles for Japanese kitchen knives.  I would always masking tape the blade and had to deal with this residue on many blades, including carbon blades like the White and Blue series steels, ones with iron cladding, etc.  Try a micro fiber cloth and the alcohol.  The tape should make the mf cloth grab a bit and may take some pressure to remove and several tries and more alcohol than you would think.  Goo Gone worked great and didn't discolor the carbon kitchen knife blades, but I would be extremely hesitant to use it on a sword.

 

Tim, I will give it a try.  I was fairly frugal with the alcohol for fear of any effect on finish and used tissue.  I'll use a microfiber and more liberal alcohol and report back.  the pattern really looks like tape.

[Taz575]

Tissue will often shred, even paper towels would shred on me unless I used the Goo Gone stuff.

[Daso]

Tissue will often shred, even paper towels would shred on me unless I used the Goo Gone stuff.

Great on sneakers with gum, but I'm way too scared to put that stuff on my katana :-), I'll try the microfiber and alcohol tonight.  Thanks,

Darius

[Taz575]

Yeah, me too! 

[J Reid]

Use never-dull to remove minor surface rust, finger prints, and residues. Works like a charm. Safe on nihonto. Safer than uchiko.

[Stephen]

No....no no...never dull can cause damage to a polish!!

[Grey Doffin]

I agree with Steven.  Never Dull will make a rusty Showa-to look shiny and it will make a fine Nihonto look like a shiny Showa-to.

Grey

[Alan F]

Very interesting. I agree with Tim that it does almost look like the pattern left behind by tape residue. Particularly in the first photo where it looks like a rectangular band across the sword. Similar to what one might see when removing old duct tape from a hard surface. Many theories might be proposed as to it's origin.

 

If it is not a residue that can be removed with solvent or uchiko, then perhaps the marks have been etched into the surface of the blade. Chemicals in tape might do that too. Perhaps someone wrapped the blade first with tape or something else and clamped it to do some work on it. Just another theory.

 

One thing that I would like to mention, is that blades should be protected inside the shirasaya when shipping with cling film. This is what Darcy and Ted recommend, and do, when they ship swords. When shipping, the sword can vibrate (rattle back and forth) inside the shirasaya. This might lead to marks on the blade surface (like brinelling or scratches) if unprotected. I don't think that these marks on the Kiyomitsu are due to that, because I would expect them to be further out towards the end of the sword. But who knows?

 

Alan

[Daso]

Hello All,  Thank you.  I'm going to #1 Try using the microfiber cloth and more alcohol and #2 if that doesn't work on this second round, I'm going to take some real close-ups of the dots to see if they become recognizable.  #3 I think I need to chill out a bit about my first katana just like first dent in a new car (not that this will stop me from fully taking the best care of it).  Thanks, and will update later.

Darius

[SteveM]

 recently had the kissaki redone

 

Hello Darius - this set off a little red flag in my mind.

Was the person who redid the tip of your sword a nihonto specialist?

It definitely gives the impression that your reshaper wrapped the blade in duct tape/masking tape so he could grip it to work on the tip.

I don't think the spots are fatal to the sword, but I'm slightly suspicious that the work was done by someone who was not really an expert(?). Kind of curious to see how the tip looks. 

[Daso]

Steve, funny you should ask about tip. I just received a cool little Kickstarter project which attaches to my phone and takes ridiculous microscope pictures. To answer your question, yes the kissaki was reshaped by a Nihonto specialist no question. Now first of all, it's scary to see what the eye can't. This is I believe at 400x so I took an image of the tip and a photo of the purple cloth that everyone has to handle Nihonto. I'm really at a loss for what these dots are. I gave a vigorous rubbing with microfiber and alcohol, but no difference ( bummer). Next question is whether professional Nihonto polishers tape blades to work on them and do you typically use a vice while.reshaping a tip? Here are the reference photos as well as a section of the spots. Let me know what you think. Thanks. Darius

[SteveM]

Wow! That is a powerful attachment!

 

Regarding the sword polishers, there are a few videos around which show how they polish - the short answer is, no they do not use tape or a vice. (Not the ones I've seen, at any rate). 

The ones I've seen polish the blade while holding it in their bare hands, or maybe wrap some cloth (I don't know what kind of cloth) around part of the sword if they want a better grip. 

[Greg F]

While cutting bottles full of water (with chinese made katana) in the past ive noticed some of the sticky residue from the stickers on the bottles smeared across the blade where it made contact. It wasnt easy getting it off with alcohol either and if I hadnt cleaned it off im sure it would have left something like the spots in a line like these. I hope thats not whats happened here.

Steve also makes a good point about the work on the kissaki. Good luck.

 

Greg

[Daso]

While cutting bottles full of water (with chinese made katana) in the past ive noticed some of the sticky residue from the stickers on the bottles smeared across the blade where it made contact. It wasnt easy getting it off with alcohol either and if I hadnt cleaned it off im sure it would have left something like the spots in a line like these. I hope thats not whats happened here.

Steve also makes a good point about the work on the kissaki. Good luck.

 

Greg

Greg, i promise I wasn't chopping any coke bottles but how did you get tge residue off? Im scared to really do too much but the high res photos look like splotches of something rather than rust spots (to me at least).

[Ed Harbulak]

Darius,

If the spots really are glue residue from tape and it were my blade, I'd saturate the tip of a cotton Q-tip with some lighter fluid and gently rub a few of the spots with the Q-tip. I can't imagine that lighter fluid would harm a polished blade and it should remove any glue residue. If that doesn't work, then perhaps it isn't glue residue you are dealing with. If you don't want to try lighter fluid on your sword, then you might apply some duct tape or masking tape to a piece of glass or smooth steel to see if you can duplicate the spots. You might have to let the tape sit around for a few days, perhaps leave it out in the hot sun so that some residue remains when you remove the tape. Then see if the lighter fluid removes the glue residue. If you find you can remove the residue from glass or smooth steel, then try it on the blade. If the spots remain, my guess is they aren't glue residue. The problem with things like this is that you know those spots are there and they will keep bugging you. Sometimes it's better to just leave things they way they are and not worry about them. If you do use lighter fluid on your blade, then apply sword oil to the area since the lighter fluid will remove any oil from the blade which could then lead to rusting. Good luck.  

[Daso]

Thanks Ed, might give the idea a shot then as you said, just chalk it up to leaving it alone since you don't see it without a strong light source aimed at it

[ggil]

Very cool pictures Darius! The spots seem to be surface oxidation, or I mean they are physically attached to the metal. I don't think anything short of an abrasive will remove them. I would learn to love them. I don't really understand the uchiko process, or I mean that I wouldn't try it if the blade was mine, before somebody demonstrated how repeated uchiko doesn't harm a polished blade's finish. Maybe they are doing it by the book: very cautiously (without pushing the grit hard into the metal), and over and over many times??? I have read (and believe) that uchiko is fully capable of damaging a polish, but maybe this is because people don't do it right. I have tried uchiko, but I don't hardly ever use it (just over oil is what I do to my nihonto). GOod luck and be careful with that beauty of a blade!

[Daso]

Grant,

 

Thanks, That's upsetting, but makes sense.  I still wonder how it happened in such a linear manner.  Oh well. Fix in the future.

[Nihonto Chicken]

The spots may have been caused by tape residue or the like that wasn't completely removed, but the spots themselves are very likely oxidation patches, IMO.  Very light rust, when it first starts up, is often white in color, not the red, brown and black when it gets further along.  I've found that even the very light white rust often leaves pitting, though your micro-photographs look like you may have avoided that.  The spots may possibly be removed using enough uchiko, but that could have a deleterious effect on the state of the polish.  So you can either learn to love them, chance the uchiko (what I'd do, but I'm a nihonto Philistine and haven't as yet paid two grand for a polish), or have a professional polisher remove them (a many hundred dollar proposition, I'm guessing, essentially a finish polish redo).  Good fortune in whatever you decide!