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Thinking About Buying This Sword, Authentic? A Good Deal?


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Hi,

 

I'm a first time collector. Thinking about buying this as my first sword, but I really don't know much about it. I've attached pictures and documentation.

 

Seller says it's signed by Norisuke of Bizen, early Muromachi period and comes with NTHK kanteisho certificate and antique koshirae. 

Price is $4,500 USD.

 

Do you think it is authentic? How would you rate the condition from the pictures and is it a good deal / fair price?

 

Thanks,

Julian

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Julian, an authentic what? An authentic Nihonto, yes. An authentic Nihonto with koshirae, yes. An authentic Nihonto with koshirae & NBTHK origami, sure. A good deal/fair price? That's up to you to decide.

 

Like all newcomers to the Nihonto world, you're anxious to buy your very first blade...we've all been there, believe me. But those of us who have spent our money on books, & then spent time to STUDY, have invariably gotten a lot more blade for our money than those people who haven't gone that route.

 

Get the hint?

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Ken

 

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Ken, 

 

Thanks for the reply! I am attempting to study and using this particular sword as an entry point. Let be more specific with my questions:

 

1) The attached portion of the NBTHK certificate says the school, correct? Or is it the name of the smith himself?

2) Is that a famous maker/school? Or at least one people have heard of before? I couldn't find anything about it online... but I believe it comes from Bizen in Okayama.

3) Does an NBTHK paper add significant value? Or is it quite easily for any old signed sword to be signed off on by 5 judges?

4) Finally... Condition and temper line appear good. No rust etc. I'm assuming this is not a well known maker, but it is 600 years old. Given those factors, what is a ball park price range for swords of this nature?

 

Pricing seems like something that you can't study in a book and is best evaluated from the experience of others. Any help would be much appreciated!

 

Thanks again, 

Julian

 

 

 

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1. http://www.shibuiswords.com/papers1.htm& http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/origami.htm

 

2. Bizen is one of the Gokaden, & made more blades than all other school combined

 

3. Any certified provenance adds value, & origami for a blade is NOT trivial

 

4. http://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/meisearch?page=136&order=mcuwetbn

 

With these hints, Julian, go ye forth & learn!

 

Ken

 

 

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Dear Julian

I agree with Grey the papers are from the NTHK not NBTHK which commercially does make some difference (dealers generally prefer NBTHK to other papering bodies although both NTHK groups are competent and certainly having an NTHK paper will improve saleability and enhance value)

Although Ken is absolutely right in his recommendations I appreciate buying books when what you really want to do is get started and buy your first sword can seem a very "dry" and frustrating idea. Although many of us older time collectors recommend it if we are honest I very much doubt we followed this approach when we started.

The sword you are looking at is authentic and is certainly far better than many first time buys that appear here. But it also represents a significant financial outlay in something you know nothing about, so it is a risk.

Bizen blades are, as Ken says, not uncommon but they are very popular and have an enthusiatic following. They also encompass a huge range of quality and value ranging from national treasures to mass produced work. One of the things that make them popular is the flamboyant flowing hamon you see in much of their work. However they also made suguha blades such as this one which may be less popular in the Bizen camp but generally perfectly acceptable.

 

Not being a great bizen fan I dont know this smith. The shape and condition of the sword looks ok. It is signed and if not ubu than only slightly shortenned and this adds to it's value.

Is it worth what is being asked? As already said that is something only you can answer. As in any other antique field price is purely based on what someone is willing to pay. to decide how much you want it consider this:

you buy it learn from it and then decide to move it on in a couple of years. if you only recover 60-70% of your investment will you feel robbed or will you put that loss down to the price of enjoyment and learning it has given you?

Dont buy it beleiving you will make a profit when you come to sell it, or as a pension fund or for any other financial benefit. If having viewed it this way you still want to buy it and it looks better than anything else you have seen then you have answered your own question.

good luck

Paul

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I'm on my phone and on the move so this will be bit short reply. Research as much as you can before the purchase.

 

I found a year ago that my tachi that I purchased from a friend many years ago came to him from Nakamura-san. After seeing the pictures of it that were on the sales ad back then, I can say at least the sword I own looks much better than in pictures.

 

That being said, Nakamura-san has been a seller who I've browsed for many years. I think myself as a tachi collector and he often has fairly priced tachi for sale. As a low budget collector I really enjoy the items he has. He often has stuff that I like and I think are quite good deals.

 

I think it's a fair deal. I try to always browse for signed old tachi online, and finding them under 5k is quite rare. Of course the ones you find under 5k are not perfect but that should be expected.

 

I don't really care about that koshirae and for me it would be something extra that comes along. But you'll get signed & papered tachi from early Muromachi in shirasaya & koshirae for under 5k, so my guess is the condition could be the issue. Still that is the fact you have to deal with, you can't usually find a pristine sword like that for less than 5000$'s.

 

I've accepted that I have to slightly have a "blind eye" to some condition issues in order to be able to collect swords I like the most.

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This is a particularly good thread that might be of use to Julian

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12646-advices-for-newbies-buyers-rules-of-thumb/?hl=%2Brules+%2Bbuying&do=findComment&comment=130767

Also, Guido's article is good for a bit more food for thought for the person thinking about nihonto collecting

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/Collecting.pdf

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Hi Julian,To give some balance, My experience with Nakamura was not good so it can be different for all of us Jussi;s experience was a good one and yours may be but I would  take Ken's advice and then save a bit more and give ebay a miss till you know a bit more.  ebay is not for first time collectors.

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eBay....hmmm. Bear in mind that thousands are looking at the sword, and since it hasn't sold...that means the market value for it is no higher than that.

My advice would be to get away from age, and look for quality and condition. Does the hamon and hada excite you? Is there a lot to see there?

If not, it's time to look elsewhere. On the other hand, if the sword does it for you, then go for it. Stuff like this seems to be coming out of Japan like a vending machine nowdays. Mediocre stuff that is what it is. No more, no less.

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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