Tsukamoto Okimasa Saku

[Darcy]

Photo of a Japanese workshop, I can take one too, doesn't mean anything other than someone took a photo there.

 

Torokusho: if a sword showed up with one it means that it wasn't exported correctly from Japan as it is forfeited. A scanner, color printer, lamination machine and Photoshop is all that is necessary to make your own anyway. 

 

The rest:

 

Ebay takes a cut.

 

Ebay seller takes a cut.

 

"Japanese sword dealer" in Japan takes a cut.

 

Cost of raw materials is another cut. I don't know the price of tamahagane. But you do need to buy it and fuel and everything else.

 

"Polish" is another cut. Somehow they're being polished for a couple hundred bucks.

 

What's left is a couple hundred bucks for a "starving swordsmith" to make a sword. 

 

Sword is registered in Japan (expense), deregistered (expense), shipped (has to go by boat or else you're into another couple hundred). 

 

Yet all of this is being done profitably for all parties? Only in one or two countries, Japan is not one of them. 

 

Seller makes no claim on ebay that this blade is Japanese or Japanese origin, keep it in mind as well. 

 

He just says it's a katana and it is. 

[AndyMcK]

I agree, lot of if's and but's... and to add a but, do you think the people making swords keep their skill up by just waiting to get an order or would you rather do your 2 blades a month quota and keep your skills in check and test new ideas?

 

Like said all we talk here is mere speculation in one way or another withou any definate proof. And business is business, even in Japan like Darcy just stated. If you have 20x blades in your shelf dusting away and not bringing in any $ wouldn't you be willing to sell it for huge minus just to buy more tamahagane and continue keeping up your skills for example.

 

I do think that many of us westeners have a rosy tinted glasses on when we think of nihonto and the tradition surrounding them. We tend to forget that people do want to earn a living (or food to the table) in any means necessary, in Europe, USA and Japan alike.

 

Bear in mind that many of you are proud owners of a nihonto shop also and looking to make a profit while buying wares and selling them forward. No disrespect meant but in my country disrespecting a "colleague" publicly is one of the worst things you can do to him and usually it is considered more courteous to not pound on a person with out definate proof. what I am saying that "competition" on buyers during these economic times are harsh and we all know what we like to do if someone is undermining the prices...

 

Sorry if I seem blunt, I am Finnish. I do not bend around the bushes or leave things unsaid. and we do have a saying "Se koira älähtää, johon kalikka kalahtaa" so if you do feel offended, look it up.

 

Like I said earlier, good blades for martial artists, even some interesting ones. I do not know how well these photos show qualities but in hand rather decent. And some laminated torokushos for folks.

 

Sorry for the rather long rant but I do think that people deserve fair treatment on and off the net, present of not.

 

Antti

[Stephen]

If Chinese dogs bark do they sound the same in English?

[Guido]

Putting food on the table and selling for a huge loss don't go along very well. I know personally one of those "impoverished smiths", and discussed with him this very topic a couple of years ago. He told me that he has to sell a katana for at least 400,000 Yen to break even, and that he therefore can't compete with the semi-mass produced (although traditionally made) martial art swords that come out of Seki. In that environment, they probably could make one for 200,000 Yen - which, even without the cuts that dealers make, would be double than what the swords discussed here sell for. You do the math.

[AndyMcK]

I know also the costs Guido and like said folks making fully traditional blades without any big name do have it hard. I think merely quality tamahagane for katana-sized blade costs more than 1000$.

But they are coming somewhere from Japan, unless we are ready to open a discussion on how they are smuggling a ton of blades from China to Japan, with their strict import laws and procedures. And then there is also the question that have the chinese finally learned to mass produce decent katanas... rather torn between which to choose from these negative ones so I rather stick with my naive view that these are semi-mass produced, student works etc.

 

And I think they eat so many dogs in China that they will rather meouw than bark. kind of missed that comments inner meaning as there are no chinese present I presume?

 

I do hope that someone can give definate and accurate answers, we are still throwing darts in the dark and hoping to hit the mark.

 

Does anyone know how the smiths are teaching their students in blade-making? Steel, process etc. traditional workshop vs. semi mass?

 

And sorry on my behalf to the OP for dragging this on.

 

Antti

[David Flynn]

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

[Guido]

I didn't say they were made in China (or any other country than Japan, for that matter). Let me put it this way: I would be very surprised if you'd find even only a trace of tamahagane in them. The hada (and activities therein) looks to me like what I've seen in swords made from powder steel, and they all have the same weird hamon, almost like shōwatō. And yes, a shinsakutō has to be signed to get a torokusho, but to the best of my knowledge the law doesn't say anywhere that one can't change his art name on a daily basis, so there's a loophole.

[Guido]

From the minutes of an NBTHK management staff panel discussion, held in January 1992:

 

 

Akira Yagi (Director): I have a serious question about present-day sword making. I've heard that a considerable amount of electronically forged iron material has been in use ...

 

Tomonari Suzuki (Executive Director): It's partly true. When there was only an extremely limited amount of tamahagane available for sword makers, they had to find something to replace the most desirable material, and use of the machine-made material came as a result of having nothing else. At one point in time, it certainly became even trendy among them to use it. However, after the NBTHK started the tatara operation to provide tamahagane, most of the swords that we see submitted to the competition are products of tamahagane.

 

Yagi: Is that really true?

 

Suzuki: In other words, there may be some among contemporary sword makers who are producing swords from the undesirable material, but as far as the contestants in the shinsaku meitō-ten are concerned, they are the ones who have access to tamahagane.

 

Terumasa Kobayashi (Manager, Data Base): We are fully aware of the problem, and that is why we ask the applicants to submit information as to the material used. We consider it as a kind of preliminary screening. It's quite amusing to find, once every five years or so, an easy-going applicant who specifies "electronically forged iron". (laughter)

[AndyMcK]

Thank you Guido, clear examples and a quite possible explanation on the amount of blades in the wholesale market.

 

Antti

[Dr Fox]

On the face of it, what is being sold here? These blades have an attractive look, and a price tag that most folks could afford!

What I find a puzzle is, why go to the trouble of adding a spurious mei?

If they are meant to fool those who don't know better, then a mei is not going to impress the don't knows.

The mei is what gives the call ‘fake’. 

Without, is it a copy? Or a modern made katana, not pretending to be anything else.

A Paul Chen is what it is, and presented so, so whats the deal here?

Tamahagane? Not at this money!

[Jussi Ekholm]

Can't add much useful into discussion other than link to Usagiya where they have listed prices for couple various qualities of tamahagane from NBTHK (there are many more grades I believe).

 

Grade 1A (the best) = 8,100 Yen/kg

Cast Iron? = 3,240 Yen/kg

Lowest grade = 1,620 Yen/kg

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/others1.html

 

I used my google fu as I don't have access to my books currently but on The Craft of the Japanese sword Yoshindo Yoshihara states that first phase of forging consumes about half of original tamahagane. So after the 1st stage you'll get a bar which is about 2,25 to 3,5 pounds. It is cut in three pieces. Short sword can be made from 2 pieces long sword needs 4 (1 additional piece from other bar). It is said that these 4 pieces when welded together weigh around 3,25 to 5,5 pounds (at this point half of the original starting material is already lost). This is for kawagane, the jacket steel. So you could be starting about c.6,5 to 11 pounds of tamahagane which is about 3 to 5 kgs.

 

Yoshindo also uses 2 pound (about 900g-1kg) chunk of tamahagane with average carbon content of 0,5% as a starting phase for shingane.

[Julian]

Good Day everyone 

 

i contact Mr Fred Lohman and here is answer ;

 

Sir  The Blade is unusual and it is not possible to determine much about it ...

 

So im gonna ship the blade to him for making a habaki and Shirasaya also because i need one anyway 

 

i will give you more info when mr Lohman receive my blade and maybee he will be able to talk more about it 

 

Merci 

Julien 

[Surfson]

This has been an interesting thread.  I have always assumed that these naked blades that are popping up everywhere are made in China, but I would feel better about them if they were indeed made by traditional means in Japan.  Julien, don't worry about it.  You can flip that sword back up on eBay and get most or all of your money back out of it.  I would then suggest that you study gendaito more closely, in hand if possible, and also befriend some of the great gendaito experts on this board.   You can find some wonderful gendaito made in the 20th century for relatively cheap prices.  You might focus on ones that are mounted in old military mounts, as long as you can tell the machine made blades apart from the gendaito.  This is a fun hobby, and I'm sure you will get past this early bump in the road.  

[Swordlook]

I didn't say they were made in China (or any other country than Japan, for that matter). Let me put it this way: I would be very surprised if you'd find even only a trace of tamahagane in them. The hada (and activities therein) looks to me like what I've seen in swords made from powder steel, and they all have the same weird hamon, almost like shōwatō. And yes, a shinsakutō has to be signed to get a torokusho, but to the best of my knowledge the law doesn't say anywhere that one can't change his art name on a daily basis, so there's a loophole.

Guido -

 

Can you please point out what you see that makes the hamon look weird or from powder steal?

 

Thanks

[Darcy]

I know also the costs Guido and like said folks making fully traditional blades without any big name do have it hard. I think merely quality tamahagane for katana-sized blade costs more than 1000$.

But they are coming somewhere from Japan, 

 

 

So when someone buys one of these on ebay for $1000, you think that these guys are just making an endless stream of swords at a multi thousand dollar loss? They keep this up for years? 

 

It makes no sense at all. Nobody does it. If you were going to work and at the end of the month your employer took money away from you, you wouldn't just keep it up for years and say you have it hard. You would get a new job. 

 

There is a reasonability thing here. If you think that the raw material is worth $1,000, then you wouldn't sell the sword for $200 to the middlemen. And it doesn't explain who is polishing them for 10% of the price of a traditional polisher.

 

Basically that sword is still worth its weight in raw materials. You're better off recycling it than selling it for less than the cost of the raw materials. Unless the raw materials are not traditional materials and cost you next to nothing. That's one shortcut to reduce the cost of these blades. 

 

People have a vested interest in believing they are receiving traditionally made Japanese swords from traditional materials made in Japan by a licensed swordsmith (who also seems to be making gimei signatures) but it fails the smell test and the logic test in a big way.

 

All of the corners have to be cut to pull this off and it's not going to be a traditionally made sword as a result.

[Darcy]

Can't add much useful into discussion other than link to Usagiya where they have listed prices for couple various qualities of tamahagane from NBTHK (there are many more grades I believe).

 

Grade 1A (the best) = 8,100 Yen/kg

Cast Iron? = 3,240 Yen/kg

Lowest grade = 1,620 Yen/kg

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/others1.html

 

I used my google fu as I don't have access to my books currently but on The Craft of the Japanese sword Yoshindo Yoshihara states that first phase of forging consumes about half of original tamahagane. So after the 1st stage you'll get a bar which is about 2,25 to 3,5 pounds. It is cut in three pieces. Short sword can be made from 2 pieces long sword needs 4 (1 additional piece from other bar). It is said that these 4 pieces when welded together weigh around 3,25 to 5,5 pounds (at this point half of the original starting material is already lost). This is for kawagane, the jacket steel. So you could be starting about c.6,5 to 11 pounds of tamahagane which is about 3 to 5 kgs.

 

Yoshindo also uses 2 pound (about 900g-1kg) chunk of tamahagane with average carbon content of 0,5% as a starting phase for shingane.

 

To followup up to this is this:

 

http://www.jsme.or.jp/tsd/ICBTT/conference02/TatsuoINOUE.html

 

The entire process consumes 10x the weight of the sword in tamahagane. So you're looking at 81,000 yen to get to a 1 kilo sword. Right now that's about $750. 

 

This is a lot cheaper if you use manufactured steel. 

[Darcy]

On the face of it, what is being sold here? These blades have an attractive look, and a price tag that most folks could afford!

What I find a puzzle is, why go to the trouble of adding a spurious mei?

If they are meant to fool those who don't know better, then a mei is not going to impress the don't knows.

The mei is what gives the call ‘fake’. 

Without, is it a copy? Or a modern made katana, not pretending to be anything else.

A Paul Chen is what it is, and presented so, so whats the deal here?

Tamahagane? Not at this money!

 

The mei is done exactly for the reason it is being discussed on the board here:

 

1. "low information collectors" are hot to make their big score, they buy it and then they come and ask people what they got... this is an ongoing thing in many collecting fields. Nobody wants their claim jumped. So these go out with a mei that is associated with someone interesting and so they get people convinced it's something good. 

 

2. the "real smith" is doing something bad here. This is *beyond a doubt* because he's making gimei items. This is fraud. I highly doubt that such a smith is scrupulously following all other rules for making the swords so as to give the customer the best possible and legitimate product, then just breaks down at the mei and puts someone else's name on it. There is no honor among thieves, once you're committed to making gimei, then all bets are off on how they're made. 

 

The likely answer is that if he puts his real name on them then he's connected to the fraud and people want to know what's going on. The only one who knows is the guy who is importing them. 

 

But you could get all those guys making Chen blades and coach them and provide some different but still cheap steel and see what you get out of it. Just you just need one polisher set up to use machines instead of tradition to get the foundation right and polish it. 

 

Honestly my brother could build such a machine, there are far more complex robots built for manufacturing all the time. 

 

You go somewhere where the cost of that infrastucture is zero and your raw material being basic steel costs you zero, you make a blade, you don't fuss with habaki or shirasaya. They all have flaws in them. Bolt them to some boards and ship to the vendor. 

 

That's how you make a business like this.

 

15 years ago I said that the fakes would eventually get good enough that they would start to overlap. In all of these swords I see big forging flaws that a modern smith would reject a blade for, but this is not part of the process here.

 

They made mass production in Seki many times. If you take modern pass production techniques and apply them to swords, you have this kind of product coming out the end. 

 

A katana. Japanese-like. Materials wrong, hamon style a bit off, just enough to fool the guy who wants to buy a more expensive blade but can't. He doesn't have the experience and in the end it may make him happy. 

 

CAPPING IT OFF

 

The seller is MAKING NO CLAIM that (a) this is a traditionally made blade (b) that it was made anywhere © what the materials are. 

 

He says: this is a katana. It has a signature. Here's the price. Everything else is easily dot connected by people in a rush to get their big bargain. 

 

I get approached in Thailand all the time by Indian guys shoving Rolexes in my face. 95% of the people laugh. 5% buy them because they think that Rolex may be really cheap in Thailand (it's actually more expensive in many third world countries to get luxury goods). They're just chinese fakes made good enough to fool. 

 

In this case, seems like the same thing though they are following the general recipe this time and they seem to have a bit of Japanese help. 

[Guido]

Guido -

 

Can you please point out what you see that makes the hamon look weird or from powder steal?

 

Uhm, observation? I don't want to sound cocky, but please compare the swords being discussed here to a ) shōwatō, & b ) Chinese martial art swords such as Hanwei - they have more in common with those than with any traditionally made sword I've ever seen (and I've seen quite a few). Sure, the sugata sets them apart from the typical Cinese "sword-on-a-stick", as do the professional looking signatures, but the hamon looks uncontrolled and oil quenched. To me they have the appearance of WWII mass produced swords, but made with modern materials.

[Brian]

Get caught doing this in Japan..and it's jail time. You are breaking serious laws. You might be willing to try get away with 2 or 3..but to do this consistently for years? No-one is going to take that chance.

Now do this in China, and you can do it all day long, for cheap. And make good money. The only question is, do you smuggle them in to Japan, and ship from there (why?..no point in risking jail time again) or do you just find a seller in the West?

You throw in a couple of totokusho. Easy enough to find old and real ones, and copy the details. Or you just fake the whole torokusho. Easy nowdays.

Just conjecture, but if you listen to Darcy and Guido, you will have most of the info you need to make an informed decision.
 

In the interests of solving this, who wants to loan one of these swords that we can send to a US shinsa and get an opinion?

[Guido]

Get caught doing this in Japan..and it's jail time. You are breaking serious laws. You might be willing to try get away with 2 or 3..but to do this consistently for years? No-one is going to take that chance.

Now do this in China, and you can do it all day long, for cheap. And make good money. The only question is, do you smuggle them in to Japan, and ship from there (why?..no point in risking jail time again) or do you just find a seller in the West?

 

Hmm, I don't know, this photo looks very much like it was taken in Japan: the worn tatami (heck, the guy to the left even removed his shoes before stepping on them, you won't see that in China [and especially not clean, white tennis socks  ]), the kotatsu table with (very typical Japanese) thick vinyl cover, the distinctive Japanese handwriting (e.g. a tag with the [Japanese family] name 石井 Ishii), the 東京新聞 Tōkyō Shimbun newspaper wrapping …

[SteveM]

Actually, that 石井 looks to me like 研 (maybe 上研 uwamigaki?)

[Guido]

Actually, that 石井 looks to me like 研 (maybe 上研 uwamigaki?)

 

You're right, could very well be 上研, i.e. a higher class polish.

[Stephen]

I agree with just about everything except for the fact we are assuming the smith is signing the mei, i see them mass made then shipped to have them added before auction. Just a gut feeling.

[AndyMcK]

I think they are added by whoever is doing the polishing job, I have few mei with similar strokes and another with different. So not the smith but someone else.

 

Antti

[Swordlook]

Could be completely wrong.... Feel free to correct me as I do not speak or read Japanse. A look on what I believe to be a Japanese auction site shows a lot of cheap swords. Some seem new.

 

http://page23.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/o135237261