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Hishu Ju Tadayoshi Kore Tadayoshi Umetada Myoju Deshi - By Soboro Sukehiro?


KarlPeterSmith

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Blade is signed 'Hishu ju Tadayoshi kore tadayoshi Umetada Myoju Deshi'. This is a 'Hishu' (or Hizen) Tadayoshi but I see (and read) Sess'hu (or Settsu)... as in... it's the work of Soboro Sukehiro. Mekugi-ana placement was the give away.

 

This is a fantastic supreme work. GREAT sword. GREAT everything... 

Details in attached pic.

 

How do you categorise this? 

 

 

 

 

post-2842-0-06688400-1456225792_thumb.jpg

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ca·hoots
kəˈho͞ots/
noun
informal
 
  1. colluding or conspiring together secretly.
    "the area is dominated by guerrillas in cahoots with drug traffickers"
    synonyms: in league, colluding, in collusion, conspiring, collaborating, hand in glove,in bed
    "it turned out that the commissioner was in cahoots with at least two of the managers"
     
     
     
    KPS and Johnno??

 

Dont feed the Trolls 

 

Troll17.jpg

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ca·hoots
kəˈho͞ots/
noun
informal
 
  1. colluding or conspiring together secretly.
    "the area is dominated by guerrillas in cahoots with drug traffickers"
    synonyms: in league, colluding, in collusion, conspiring, collaborating, hand in glove,in bed
    "it turned out that the commissioner was in cahoots with at least two of the managers"
     
     
     
    KPS and Johnno??

 

Dont feed the Trolls 

 

Troll17.jpg

 

 

Finally!, someone else noticed. :laughing:

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I don't know about everyone else here but I know for me I am not an expert on Nihonto and that I will always have something to learn. I find Karl's theories and research interesting - and its a bit like any field of knowledge - that field of knowledge will never change or increase or expand *without* researchers - without people coming up with theories and hypotheses and stirring the pot a little bit at least :) In a perfect world I would have translations of every significant Nihonto work there is - in English - and probably quite an extensive collection also - and therefore a much better knowledge base than I have right now - but sadly finances preclude me from having either of these things at this time... But I have to admit it, research like Karl's does get me thinking - and at my age that is not a bad thing :)

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John,

 

Scores of Japanese scholars have studied Hizen school, signatures, for at least a century and they had access to documents (often hand written) no westerners have access to. There is only one specialist in the Western world, Robert Robertshaw. Does he back KPS theories? How many Japanese specialists have backed KPS' theories?

 

The real question is who can verify on a large scale KPS' theories? At the time being, no one I am aware of.

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John,

 

Scores of Japanese scholars have studied Hizen school, signatures, for at least a century and they had access to documents (often hand written) no westerners have access to. There is only one specialist in the Western world, Robert Robertshaw. Does he back KPS theories? How many Japanese specialists have backed KPS' theories?

 

The real question is who can verify on a large scale KPS' theories? At the time being, no one I am aware of.

 

Not even KPS :dunno:

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... I will always show you PRIMARY evidence... and let you see it as it is... I class oshigata as secondary evidence... but will always try and let you see the PRIMARY as-is.

 

Here is some more PRIMARY evidence... 

...of THE DREAM TEAM... and some more HIZEN TADAYOSHI's with Munenaga-like horimono by the very talented NAGASAKA YUHOKEN... with the aid of Tsuda Sukehiro & Tsuda Sukenao examples that show you as it is.

 

...THE DREAM TEAM.

 

(attachment/evidence provided)

 

 

 

 

 

 

post-2842-0-78901500-1456257179_thumb.jpg

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If anyone wishes my perspective on any of their future purchases then please feel free to drop me a line. I do not buy or sell but I will just give an honest opinion based on the sword you are looking to buy. 

 

If you WISH to pay a small fortune "as YOU validate the weight of an opinion by how much you pay for it" then a FEE can be agreed upon.

 

I see that a recent Tadayoshi sale - papered by the HON'AMI family back in the 1940's shows a Yoshinobu, but they are happy with $11,000 piece of paper. 

 

As for the Golden Girls fan... my advice is "Don't eat yellow snow." :-)

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Blade is signed 'Hishu ju Tadayoshi kore tadayoshi Umetada Myoju Deshi'. This is a 'Hishu' (or Hizen) Tadayoshi but I see (and read) Sess'hu (or Settsu)... as in... it's the work of Soboro Sukehiro. Mekugi-ana placement was the give away.

 

This is a fantastic supreme work. GREAT sword. GREAT everything... 

Details in attached pic.

 

How do you categorise this? 

 

 

It's Hishu. There is no doubt about it whatsoever.

 

I categorize it as a Tokubetsu Juyo Token very famous and very early work of Tadayoshi which has been documented many times.

 

This tanto is in Suzuki's Tanto book.

 

Mei: Hishu ju Tadayoshi

Kore Tadayoshi Umetada Myoju deshi (This Tadayoshi is Umetada Myoju's pupil)
Length: 27.72 cm
Width: 2.48 cm
...
"The additional inscription on the ura suggests how confident Tadayoshi was."
 
Fujishiro and Robertshaw document him as signing like this as well.
 
In terms of the ongoing theory to connect Tadayoshi to Sukehiro so as to attempt to legitimize the other katana, these smiths are not even alive at the same time. Shodai Sukehiro is working around 1652 and Tadayoshi is dead and buried for 20 years. Tsuda Sukehiro would be in diapers. 
 
 
hishu-tadayoshi.jpg
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I don't know about everyone else here but I know for me I am not an expert on Nihonto and that I will always have something to learn. I find Karl's theories and research interesting - and its a bit like any field of knowledge - that field of knowledge will never change or increase or expand *without* researchers - without people coming up with theories and hypotheses and stirring the pot a little bit at least :) In a perfect world I would have translations of every significant Nihonto work there is - in English - and probably quite an extensive collection also - and therefore a much better knowledge base than I have right now - but sadly finances preclude me from having either of these things at this time... But I have to admit it, research like Karl's does get me thinking - and at my age that is not a bad thing :)

 

Flat earth, 9/11 was an inside job, moon landing was faked, Jesus appeared to the Native Americans, Vitamin C can cure cancer, are also "interesting theories." 

 

Buy some books. Read. Go to museums. Read more. Go to some shows. Read. Look at authentic works. Read. The confusion will resolve itself. 

 

I am really surprised that this continues to go on. 

 

At this point I will pay the submission fee for your sword if you bring it to the next NTHK shinsa and it passes.

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John,

Scores of Japanese scholars have studied Hizen school, signatures, for at least a century and they had access to documents (often hand written) no westerners have access to. There is only one specialist in the Western world, Robert Robertshaw. Does he back KPS theories? How many Japanese specialists have backed KPS' theories?

The real question is who can verify on a large scale KPS' theories? At the time being, no one I am aware of.

I had the pleasure of hanging out with Roger for a few hours last Saturday ... Wow. His collection is impressive and knowledge is overwhelming to a newbie like me.

 

Thanks again for the referral guys

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I am sorry but this has been allowed to go on far too long.

it is not necessarily what is being said although I dont find anything convincing (actually understandable) in much of the posts. But certainly the ping-pong childlike one upmanship really reduces the quality and reputation of the board and is discourteous to those who contribute for that reason.

I for one have had enough if this is the way we want the board to go then please count me out.

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KPS; so everything that every respected resource spanning several hundred years, and all the contemporary study upon which all that is based and developed, and every noted authority that has dedicated their lives either in whole or in large part to the scholarship of Nihonto... are wrong?  Invalidated by your unilateral and independent interpretations of onion skin thin references of mekugi-ana placements and anomolous stroke order "codes" which only you can see and define, with perfectly pure understanding to share benevolently with others?

 

This all sounds quite uncomfortably close to religion.  Aren't you on the wrong forum?  

 

As for you're parting shot at Darcy;  his intelligence, experience, and reputation are clearly evident and respected in the Nihonto community.  If you knew him personally, you might yourself experience a little bit of that enlightenment that Confucius is trying so desperately to point you to.

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I don't ban or delete people on request. That's not how it works. If someone is rude or threatening, I ban them. But for having their own theory? (No matter how crazy or unintelligible it is)
No..sorry.

I have deleted the his bumping of old topics, to minimize the disruption. This is his own thread, started by him. So how about some decency in either ignoring it, or showing why the theories do not gel, like Darcy has done?

You know...there IS a "foes" feature in your profile where you can add ANYONE you dislike and not even see their posting. I suggest people use it.

When someone becomes rude or crosses the line, I will be happy to remove them as I have done in the past.

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Hi Brian,

 

I think that there is a difference between having a non-mainstream theory and deliberately posting some BS in the hope that someone will bite and, therefore, allow the OP to traduce them as being a "hater" for producing concrete academic references as to why the theory is, indeed, BS. Isn't this what has just happened with Darcy (again)?

 

This to me is trolling and its purpose is to waste everyone's time and, IMHO, it dumbs down the forum if it is allowed to continue, but that's your prerogative.

 

Furthermore, if KPS's last post isn't rude then I don't know is...

 

Anyhow, I've taken your advice and I've found and used the ignore feature so it won't be problem that I'll experience in future.

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