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Yet Another Inherited Gunto Katana/wakizashi


andym

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Greetings all. This is my first post and I know very little about nihon-to so please forgive my ignorance if I say something stupid.

 

I have recently inherited a katana/wakizashi gunto from my late uncle. I have no idea where he got it or when. I've been reading up as much as I can on Japanese blades but obviously it needs to be seen by someone who knows a lot more than me to determine if it's even worth having appraised. I am hoping that someone here can tell me a little about it.

 

The nagasa is only 602mm long making it either a katana (>60cm) or wakizashi (<2 shaku = 606mm) depending on how pedantic one is feeling. The boshi extends around and along the top of the kissaki  and blends into the hamon cleanly so I don't think it's been shortened.  The tang has some corrosion and has a signature - or at least the remains of one. It appears to be 3 or 4 characters but only the second last one is clear.  I suspect it says Kanehisa saku but it lacks any trace of a tang stamp or arsenal stamp .   There are no date markings on the other side and no numbers anywhere. I can still see file marks toward the habaki and at the end. I have not removed any rust or tampered with the tang at all.

 

Overall I think the blade is in pretty good condition with only one tiny chip about 15cm from the tip and some surface staining. The seems to be no pitting and the ha (apart from the chip) is pristine and pretty sharp all the way to the habaki. One side of the blade appears to have been lightly sanded or scrubbed by some fool with a scourer in the past but they don't appear to have done major damage.

 

I've attached a bunch of photos that attempt to capture the salient points.

 

I have no intention of selling it but neither am I prepared to spend a lot on restoring what might be a low value blade. Basically I'm wondering if I'm wasting my energy getting excited.

 

I hope someone can help.

 

Andrew

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Andy,

welcome to the NMB forums!

Without being pedantic, it is a WAKIZASHI. You should do the right things (read here in the respective forums) to stop the active corrosion on the NAKAGO.  

On the photos, the HAMON looks like those of oil-quenched blades, I think. If I am correct, you probably don't want to invest much money for a traditional polish. Anyway, it is a decorative military item.
 

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Wow! Quick replies!  Thanks!

 

Probably the main thing I'm hoping to determine is the overall quality of the blade and whether it's worth any attention.  Can one tell by looking if it is hand made?  I've attached some pics showing what I hope is evidence of laminating but I really don't know what I'm looking for.  I'm assuming it's non-traditional made but which elements of tradition have been violated?  If it's a hand-made oil-quenched I'll be happy with that.

 

You're right about the mounts being a little worse for wear.  The saya is pretty far gone although I am curious as to why it's just lacquered wood.  What is the ethic regarding polishing up the metalwork of the mounts?  Particularly the tsuba?

 

Is it common for this type of blade to not have arsenal stamp, hot stamp or date?

 

Andrew

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I agree with Jean above regarding the blade. Perhaps it was created in a Seki foundry. Seki is an important sword-making region in Japan, and there was a foundry there making swords for the army under the supervision of some smiths who then sometimes put their names to their swords. Kanehisa was from Gifu-prefecture, which is where Seki is located.

 

So if I had to judge from your photos (which is often a dodgy proposition) I would say yours is an oil-quenched Seki blade. This doesn't mean it is trash, by any means. It has value as an historical artifact, and there are a lot of collectors of Japanese WWII swords no matter what quality of steel or how it was forged. Unfortunately for you, your sword furnishings (scabbard, tassel, menuki, etc..) look like they've all had a rough life. I think it will probably be too much effort to try to restore the sword and the furnishings to museum quality. And because there were so many of these items produced, it means there are still a great number of high quality pieces intact, or reconstituted from surplus parts, which makes restoring or replacing damaged pieces a labor of love that will cost more than the end product will be worth on the open market. 

 

I think you should take care that any rust doesn't spread, and read up on this site how to store the sword, and you should have a very interesting keepsake

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You suspect it is Kanehisa ?  How did you arrive at that conclusion ?

 

There is no pedantic !  There are established guidelines !  They are followed whether you approve of it or not !

 

Now that everyone has agreed with the information that I already provided you with on SFI, like the mei, and that it is a oil quenched, non traditionally made wakizashi, perhaps you believe it.  :clap:

 

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?117451-Inherited-katana

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Andrew,

I thought everything had been cleared by now, but as you ask again:

The blade (signed KANEHISA, as far as I can see on pic 3) is probably not handmade but mass produced, not made with traditional TAMAHAGANE steel but with modern cutting tool steel, not water but oil quenched. It has a HAMON, but very likely no NIE, no NIOI, no HADA and no signs of layering construction. 

It is a WAKIZASHI with bad active rust on the NAKAGO which may conceal production stamps.

The photos let me believe that the blade was treated partially with a rotating steel brush which destroys the surface. Very bad idea! 

Any and all amateur attemps of cleaning, grinding, sharpening, polishing, or restoring will lead to a loss of value - blade and TOSOGU! Natural patina on soft metal parts are important to preserve! So get rid of the rust on the NAKAGO with a pointed piece of horn, ivory, copper, or bone, brush it then with nothing harder than fine brass, and oil it lightly with machine oil of low viscosity. Basically keep the sword dry so no corrosion can take place.   

Read here at NMB about sword care and real NIHONTO.

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Ok then.  It appears I've upset people without meaning to.

 

Firstly I'd like to thank everyone for their help.  The sword is apparently unambiguously not a nihonto but is a fairly common, low quality example of war memorabilia, and of little or no value.  So be it.  It was never about the monetary value anyway.

 

Ed seems to be upset by my not crediting him with the kanehisa saku translation.  Here's the thread from SFI http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?117451-Inherited-katana for those interested. Look at it from my point of view Ed.  Since you were the only one on SFI to bother replying to me that thread constitutes a single opinion by someone I don't know who hedges their statements with disclaimers and then tells me they're not an expert.  What would you have me do?  There's a saying that Internet opinions are worth what you pay for them but I don't believe that.  I actually found your opinion quite valuable.  That's why I went directly to a military swords forum rather than embarrass myself by claiming to have found a true nihonto.  For that I thank you again.  If it makes you feel better I also contacted Kam from http://jigokustudios.com.au/ (he's also a member here) via both email and phone before posting on SFI.  He also told be it was a gunto.  Perhaps he should be upset too.  The reason I didn't mention you here was because I didn't want to bias the discussion with your or Kam's prior evaluation.

 

Regarding the definition of a wakizashi.  I know that a katana is >2 shaku.  I also know that I've seen several fairly loose definitions.  The Wikipedia article for katana actually says 60cm.  It also says that katanas were historically as short as 23.5 inches which is 596mm  Perhaps rather than attacking me for being confused you should update the article for the benefit of us idiots.  It has nothing to do with my approval and such a statement was obviously intended as a dig at my ignorance.

 

Jean C: Your comment that it is not handmade etc. is probably the closest to what I was hoping to learn.  Regarding the past treatment of the blade I agree but I can't do anything of fix it.  I've gently cleaned and oiled the nakago as per your recommendations although retaining value in worthless tosugu seems pointless.

 

While I'm on a roll let me tell you my motivations for all this.  I'm an engineer.  As such I see beauty in objects created for a specific purpose that fulfil that purpose with elegance and efficiency.  That means both the design of the object as well as the method of its production.  To me a paper-clip has beauty.  Swords are weapons.  I appreciate the beauty of a Japanese blade for the elegance of the design and the wringing out of engineering excellence from primitive materials.  That is beautiful to me.  I do not collect things for the sake of it and I care not one jot for hamon, nie, nioi, hada or anything else except insofar as they infer (or detract from) the excellence of the sword as a weapon.  I don't care if it is made of tamahagane or old railway tracks except for how it affects its excellence as a weapon.  I don't care if the smith swung a hammer or used a power hammer except for how it affects the excellence of the sword as a weapon.  I don't care about how it was quenched except for how it affects the excellence of the weapon.  Hopefully you can see a pattern forming here.  That is what I meant when I queried the quality of the blade.  I'll bet the original samurais felt the same since their lives depended on it.

 

I do also appreciate the historical significance of nihonto but only in the context of the quality of the weapon and the expertise in its production.  That's why I wanted to be sure of what I had so that it could be treated with the respect it deserves.  If it turned out to be some NCO stainless steel numbered stick I'd give it to my son to decapitate my wife's flowers with.  It's not and so I'll look after it.  To me this sword is like a vintage car.  I'm not looking at it as a daily drive and I know modern cars are better and there are more pretty cars that are older.  It's not sacred but it has a grace imparted on it by being honest about what it is.

 

Incidentally a fairly superficial search brought up a lot of conflicting opinions by metallurgists and modern smiths as to the best sword making material and method.  I claim no expertise of my own but certainly can't form one based on what I read so far.  It seems there is an awful lot to know on this subject and it is wise to make sure one's ego does not grow larger than one's knowledge. 

 

Never mind.  I've learned a lot in the last few weeks and people have been universally helpful.  I'm off to watch Youtube clips of Tsukamaki.  That also is beautiful.  Perhaps I can learn how to replace the frayed cord after some practice.

 

Thanks everyone.  And since after that little rant I suspect I'll have upset even more people, adieu.

 

Andrew

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Hi Andrew, I dont think anyone is too upset by all this so dont stress too much (unless im missing something). Your sword may not be traditionally made blade but it does have some value depending on who you ask but atleast you have a very cool inherited item that is part of history. Kam from Jigoku studios that you spoke to does good tsuka wrapping as well as koshirae and shirasaya if you wanted someone else to do it. I was lucky enough to spend time with Kam and see some of his work a couple weeks ago and I would have no hesitation asking him to do it providing he has the time. Have you seen the habaki he made and got an award in Japan for? Cheers.

 

Greg

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Andy,

I am no expert, and I have no problem with you getting a second or third opinion.  If you remember, I encouraged you to seek expert opinion, as all I could go by were your photos.

 

The nagasa is only 602mm long making it either a katana (>60cm) or wakizashi (<2 shaku = 606mm) depending on how pedantic one is feeling.

 

 

*Pedantic: marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects. A negative term that implies someone is showing off book learning or trivia, especially in a tiresome way.

 
To get the record straight it was your rude and demeaning comment above which upset me !  I went out of my way to help you understand the guidelines used when measuring Japanese swords.  But obviously from your statement, you did not agree and considered it in a trivial tiresome way.  That is fine, believe what you will, but don't publicly insult me.

 

Perhaps rather than attacking me for being confused you should update the article for the benefit of us idiots.  It has nothing to do with my approval and such a statement was obviously intended as a dig at my ignorance.

 

 

That was no attack, just a straight forward, in your face, fact after being called pedantic.  If you were confused perhaps you should have said that instead of resorting to name calling.   And no, it is not my responsibility to update articles or educate you.  If you want to learn, it is YOUR responsibility to seek the truth.  I don't make the rules regarding Nihonto, but I do adhere to them.   

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All, another good lesson on online communication! Rule of thumb - be thick-skinned, assume the sender didn't mean what it looks like to you! In my days as a squadron commander of a Civil Air Patrol sqdn, I learned the hard way! Text cannot convey facial expressions and body language. Personalities are different, and that doesn't show up well in text. Case in point, Adrew admits to being an engineer and we all know how THEY speak! :0

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Ah Bruce, well said, oh that I could be so deferential. Yes, the engineers I know speak succinctly and respectfully, especially when discussing matters in which they are admittedly ignorant. I've seen this same pout in various iterations on this and other boards and it never fails to disappoint. I frankly feel we are owed an apology for a "rant" typed knowing it "would upset even more people" and yet was sent anyway. Sans apology, adieu to you sir.

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Perhaps pedantic was too strong and for that I apologise.  Oxford dictionary has a somewhat less negative definition but anyway...

 

As an engineer I actually consider being pedantic as a good thing and didn't intend it as an insult.  I would prefer there was a hard and fast rule and don't actually care which side of the line my blade falls.  But to a novice there does appear to be multiple, fairly loose definitions for these guidelines - Wikipedia being just the most obvious example.  

 

So the rule is < 2 shaku => wakizashi.  My blade is a wakizashi.  Cool.

 

But then I see this: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18610-show-us-your-high-class-gunto/?p=194223.  Apparently, according to the actions of the NTHK-NPO, the rule is actually not a rule but a guideline as Ed originally said.  My sword is 602mm falling right in what appears to be official tolerances for ambiguity.  Or perhaps Rick B is mistaken.  Whatever, I'm happy having a wakizashi.  The assumption that I am trying to wriggle my blade through as a katana seems biased by what I see as a strange focus of on the monetary value of items.  Apparently wakizashi are less desirable although I can't imagine why.

 

Perhaps there is some piece of information I'm missing.  If so then I'd love to know.

 

 

As a continuation of the original intent of this query in researching my wakizashi I've looked up Kanehisa in the database.  Lots of results.  Is there a legend anywhere describing the components of each entry?  I did look but couldn't find one.

 

Andrew

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Does anyone have an example of a clear wakizashi (not borderline length) that has a sho or Seki stamp?

Wakizashi that are ww2 made and issued are not common. Most I have seen have been earlier blades pressed into service.

Yes Brian. I had a wakizashi with a clear Seki stamp on the nakago, no doubts about length. It was mounted traditionally but leather covered saya for war. It even had a false spacer added under the leather combat cover to make it appear longer. No doubts it was original straight from the veteran.

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Yes Brian. I had a wakizashi with a clear Seki stamp on the nakago, no doubts about length. It was mounted traditionally but leather covered saya for war. It even had a false spacer added under the leather combat cover to make it appear longer. No doubts it was original straight from the veteran.

 Do you have any photo's of this one. I wonder if it was a factory shortening due to a defect in manufacture?

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Here they are. I think this is a deliberate size made as a special order. It's rather severe and traditional. You can see that there are some creases near the toe of the saya. A good few inches are a false wooden insert that make the overall length appear greater than reality.

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At the risk of upsetting some delicate natures, how has it been determined that this is an oil-quenched blade? I see none of the dark areas at the nioiguchi that is an indicator. Also, a sword at the boundary area of size could be considered as either perhaps; maybe the carrier was a short statured man....carrying only one sword in WW2 anyway? I believe that the Western mind tends to create categories more rigid than the Eastern mind which originated the things considered.

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The steel looks almost featureless, except for the white hamon, which in the very top pictures looks like the edge ends in a foamy, bright white line. In the second group of photos the white line isn't to be seen, so maybe its a trick of the lighting used for photography, but the second group reveals the hamon to be free from any activity. It is just a bright area, a consistently pale wavy strip, on the steel. So the clues point to a WWII-era Seki blade with no characteristics of hand-forged steel, and that is why I assume its a mass-produced oil-quenched sword. Looking at it positively, I would say its a nice piece for collectors of militaria. 

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Since this is the first sword I've ever handled I can only go by the wealth of pictures of highly polished blades available here and as such I'd tentatively agree with Steve.  If there are/is nioi (is this already plural?) they must be pretty tiny or more likely I don't know what I'm looking for.  I took the top photo of the hamon specifically to highlight it with bright lighting.  The second photos were with side lighting to try to show the what I thought was evidence of at least some folding.  I can not see the rich hada I see elsewhere but I can definitely see the grain structure of the steel in the ji under magnification.

 

Having said that it does look to have the original polish (or perhaps even been polished with Brasso or the like) on one side while the other side has been scratched up with some sort of abrasive so there's a good chance I'm imagining things.  It certainly looks different to the photos of art polished blades.  I can see no evidence of any seki stamp and there is no hot stamp.

 

I've given it a good rub down with oil and an old t-shirt and a lot of the stains have faded.  Perhaps I should take some more photos.  I've no intention of selling it but I do want to give it the treatment it deserves.

 

Andrew

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Not sure if this deserves a new thread or not...

 

In my first pic you can see that the saya is pretty rough.  What's left of the black lacquer is loose and falling off.  It looks pretty nasty to put on display and my wife hates it.  She also hates what's in it but that's another story.

 

Can one of the gunto collectors here offer advice as to if the remaining lacquer is worth retaining from a historical point of view?  Would it be a massive faux pas to sand if off and replace it with enamel?

 

Incidentally is the leather tassel thingy normal?  I've only ever seen cloth ones.

 

Thanks

 

Andrew

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 That type of saya would originally have had a leather cover, these do turn up on ebay from time to time at reasonable prices, so get one of them and forget the finish. It is unlikely that it would have been lacquer anyway, more likely ordinary paint and often they are bare wood under the cover. The leather tassel is an NCO's sword knot even though your sword is for a Commissioned officer, field replacement or a quick addition to make it more saleable back in the day? Regarding the blade, "Uchigo" it to death! Don't use abrasive paper or Brasso, I have heard talcum powder suggested as a cheap alternative for use on a beat up blade. I think the nakago needs a scrape with a piece of brass, copper or bone to remove the loose and active rust, and perhaps a light oil. I am sure others will have their own take on what to do. Originally it would have all looked something like this.

Dave

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Thanks for the info!  I figured as much but thought I'd best ask.  I'll keep an eye on ebay.

 

The tassel has now become a somewhat academic question since I thought to move it off the saya to the kabuto-gane.  The leather turns out to be rotten and brittle and the cord fell apart as soon as I touched it.

 

Sigh

 

 

Andrew

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  • 7 years later...

OLD THREAD WARNING!!!

 

Had to update this thread on a couple of issues.  Since this thread, we have discovered, thanks to Nick Komiya, that in 1945, a regulation change made it legal for NCO's to carry wakizahi.  @andym's gunto is likely one of these judging by the condition of the tassel.

 

Also, I vaguely recall a thread discussing examples of WWII era waki being pretty rare, but they did exist.  The Seki stamp on @Shamsys example would simply have come in the normal process of inspections performed by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association, who took on the task of inspecting blades made by Seki smiths.

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