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Kiyomaro Value


Jean

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Kiyondo is far less expensive Christian. 4 years ago I was offered one, while in Japan, at 2,2 M¥. IMO, it was machi okuri, the groove end (bo hi) was ending under the habaki. So, far from 27M¥.

 

Wim, it is not a question of Kanteisho. For the best smiths, prices are not driven by kanteisho. For Kiyomaro, it is the outstanding quality of his best works and their scarcity which drive the price.

 

There are hundred of Hozon or TH blades which are more expensive than some Juyo :)

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Saw this this morning and realised (i knew this of course) that there will be so many nihonto I can never own. Hope to handle and examine some high end blades some day though :-)

 

I like also the little story at the end of the description of Tsuruta-sans trip to London to bid at Southebys 30 years ago :-)

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That why I collect high grade shinsakutos. You can buy masterpeices on the secondary market almost the same quality made by today's best smiths and not pay anything near that price tag.

I heard rumours that some Kiyomaro certified as genuine was actually fakes by Tsukamoto Okimasa he made after the war, even why he was passed over for Ningen Kokuho. Not sure if that is true but it makes an interesting rumour ;-)

 

I believe the Kiyomaro bought by Aoi use to belong to Walter Compton collection. I have an oshigata somewhere.

 

 

Wah

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I think this is a different sword from the one Tsuruta-san bought 30 years ago. The sword up for auction is a consignment sale.

 

(And, 27m is the starting price...no telling where it will end up.)

 

But, having said that...50M is a huge amount. Would like to see that sword. Wonder where it is. Wish I had a cool 50M to go spend sword-shopping at Southeby's.

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Yen was on average maybe 175:1 in 1986. 

 

This is not the same sword as the one from Sotheby's.

 

It's unusual for a Kiyomaro to pop into existence like this. The papers are not that old, 2009. One dealer in Japan told me, "Nobody truly knows what is out there." 

 

This year I bought out of Japan: Norishige katana with Honami papers, Osafune Kagemitsu tanto, Enju Kunitoki katana with Honami Kozon kinzogan mei and kao, Aoe Yoshitsugu katana with Honami Tenrai kinpun mei and papers, and nidai Hasebe Kunishige signed tanto. All of these were papered at about August 2015. All of them showed signs of being in storage a long time, similar kinds of rust and those without rust showed signs of quick touchups except for the Kagemitsu had been polished. They were just sitting somewhere until this summer undisturbed and those are high level makers but nobody knew about them. This Kiyomaro apparently was sitting around until only a few years ago undisturbed. A signed Samonji tachi appeared out of nowhere 10 years ago after everyone had written books saying there was only one and dying before the blade was ever seen. I had a Rai Kunitoshi tanto with a 1289 date and the books all said his earliest known work was 1291. It was found after the books had been written.

 

Who knows what is still out there, even in Japan where you'd think that everything was already known. It's pretty exciting.

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Hello:

 By the  sword in the Compton Collection Wah I assume you mean the one that sold in the March 31, 1992 sale. That one was signed Yamaura Tamaki Masayuki with the very value adding sayagaki of Homma Kunzan. It was not a Juyo, was estimated at $20-30,000, and sold for $242,000.

 It is not clear whether the sword Tsuruta san is selling is the one that he refers to from the sale room. Could be, but recall that the JPY in 1986 ranged between 200 and 154 to the USD, so if we assume it was the same blade then the dollar cost was around 285,000 at the mid-point, and 27,000,000 JPY today would be around 235,000 USD. A bad investment? Well art investment, when RISK is taken into consideration, is not the kind of thing you want your financial advisor to put you into. The only return on art objects are possible dollar appreciation (in real terms!), and the psychic income you get from ownership. If we assume they are the same sword, that inflation can be ignored and that it actually sells for the starting price, then 50,000 USD difference is the psychic return derived over 30 years of ownership, or about $1,700 per year. Some folks would consider that a small "cost" for owning a fine Kiyomaro/Masayuki and a foregone dollar gain well worth it. 

 Arnold F.

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Also as far as I know it the sword that took the most at western auction was the Ichimonji from the Compton collection. $418k.

 

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-fukuoka-ichimonji-tachi-2344121-details.aspx?from=searchresultsintObjectID=2344121sid=9d6e1680-4de3-446e-83f7-9635538c5be6

 

No photos on Christsie's site but I can vouch for it as being spectacular. 

 

Those are just highest at western auction though, there is a fair amount of traffic of higher end pieces in these ranges. I saw a Kanemitsu go for 45 million yen at a Japanese auction and have held five in my hands that had prices above $1 million. Well one of those is asterisk'ed because the owner refused $1 million for it and when he died the family liquidated it for half that.

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Given the rarity of works by Kiyomaro for sale at any point of time, I would expect it to fetch top dollar, but how would you ship such a treasure? Sure not on a container ship and waiting for it to arrive?

 

 

Only two options, EMS and checked baggage. Or put in your teeth and swim...

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I guess now the discussion will start why a blade of this level is "only" Tokubetsu Hozon and not Juyo :)

Because the consignor was either not interested in pursuing higher level papers, or he had other priorities. Perhaps he now has to sell it due to financial constraints or impending infirmity. It would be interesting to know if it had ever been submitted for Juyo papers (and failed), though. I suspect that it would be a shoe-in for Juyo, if it had never been submitted before.

 

It will be interesting to see how far the price gets bid up by the end of the auction. 

I will be interested to see if there are any bidders at all. I would be very surprised if there are any bids before the auction ends, but I could be wrong. Those who have the dosh (and the interest) in buying this sword, would not likely be so foolish as to place a bid on Mr. Tsuruta's Ebay style auction system. I would think that they would much prefer to privately negotiate a price on a piece at this level. If there a couple of interested buyers, they will likely be watching this auction closely to ensure that they don't get sniped by a last minute bid. That is unlikely to happen. Once the auction is over, as long as it hasn't sold, they would then contact Mr. Tsuruta to discuss a deal.

 

Last year, Mr. Tsuruta had a Fukuoka Ichimonji for sale that was in the mid 4,000,000 JPY range (it might have been higher than that). No one bid on it, but it did sell within a very short time after the auction had closed. Someone was watching it, but he patiently waited until the auction was over before making a deal. Not about to be suckered into paying more than he had to. This auction system might work well for less expensive items, but otherwise it's just a clever way of bringing more attention to pieces that he has for sale and imparting a sense of urgency to the sale.

 

Pietro

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I will be interested to see if there are any bidders at all. I would be very surprised if there are any bids before the auction ends, but I could be wrong. Those who have the dosh (and the interest) in buying this sword, would not likely be so foolish as to place a bid on Mr. Tsuruta's Ebay style auction system. I would think that they would much prefer to privately negotiate a price on a piece at this level. If there a couple of interested buyers, they will likely be watching this auction closely to ensure that they don't get sniped by a last minute bid. That is unlikely to happen. Once the auction is over, as long as it hasn't sold, they would then contact Mr. Tsuruta to discuss a deal.

 

Last year, Mr. Tsuruta had a Fukuoka Ichimonji for sale that was in the mid 4,000,000 JPY range (it might have been higher than that). No one bid on it, but it did sell within a very short time after the auction had closed. Someone was watching it, but he patiently waited until the auction was over before making a deal. Not about to be suckered into paying more than he had to. This auction system might work well for less expensive items, but otherwise it's just a clever way of bringing more attention to pieces that he has for sale and imparting a sense of urgency to the sale.

 

 

Honestly 27M yen is pretty cheap for a Kiyomaro. I'll say "signed Kiyomaro" because some people are under the mistaken impression that signatures don't affect the value of a Muromachi and younger blade. It is typical though that people would want to cheap out and try to auction it in reverse because they assume the price is too high. The big question is: how good is this in terms of Kiyomaro's overall work. Is this upper level or lower level work. Because it is only expensive on an absolute scale but on a relative scale it isn't. 

 

For me, Kiyomaro blades never impressed much. A lot of ho-hum. Until I saw the works that were on exhibit at the Met and then I went... holy crap. So that's what the big deal is about. I haven't seen enough to make a full opinion or know for myself what the answer is to this question. They are not growing on trees. 

 

Any legit work of Kiyomaro is going to pass Juyo should someone desire the papers. 

 

I don't think the auction is to just advertise the blades. Sometimes things are just what they are and it's easy to try to read too much into things. It's not all a scam. It's not all a scam. It's not all a scam.

 

In this situation he's asking a fair price for the kind of sword that a lot of people really want and opportunities to buy do not come along very often. Is it worth it to any of us to pay for this one: probably not. It is worth it to a lot of people to do so though. For one of them this is not overpriced and they'll miss an opportunity by trying to go backwards and offer him less than what he's asking. 

 

Sometimes the suckers are the ones who missed the opportunity to get something because they didn't truly understand what they are looking at. And if someone saw a chance to snag a Fukuoka Ichimonji at less than 4 million yen it's not about getting suckered, it's about knowing the time horizon is short and taking advantage of the seller. Such a buyer is possibly someone who's going to turn around and put it back into the market with a longer time horizon and saw a chance to make profit. The same way you can make a profit on someone who needs to sell a house tomorrow if you're willing to scoop it and wait a year to sell it at a higher price. 

 

This sword is something to watch with interest because it is a major smith and a rare item to come onto the market. I just don't think that the western market is a place I would take a Kiyomaro because it would go for a lot more on the Japanese market than what westerners would want to pay for it. So, I am really curious about this approach. 

 

As can be seen by the fact that Tsuruta san went to a western auction and paid 50 million yen to bring one home... the Japanese market will support Kiyomaro. Nobody should think he did that to keep it for himself. He's not a dumb guy so if he brought it home at 50 million yen it's because he knew he could sell it on the local market for a lot more. Times have changed somewhat but a Kiyomaro that reflects the kind of work that was exhibited at the Met is always going to have a market in the top levels of Japanese collectors and price is going to be secondary compared to the opportunity to own it.

 

The major failing of western collectors is the thought that there is an unlimited bucket from which these things can be pulled. I'll just wait for the next one... If you are going to talk about mediocre Muromachi schools then yes, there is infinity. But when it comes to the upper echelon, no, there may not be another one come up at any time that is in your reasonable future. You can't just walk around and plunk your money down and walk off with a Masamune because you wanted to buy one. Similar to Kiyomaro. You can't even walk into a major dealer and say you'd like to buy a Soshu tradition Juyo Token. They may shake their head and say we have none. People assume if they can find one online then there must be hundreds available, and nope. There's only about 700 major Soshu Juyo blades in existence. 

 

So when you watch something like this go by you should pay attention. And don't just assume that he's reaching for the clouds with his price and he will deal it out the back door for 30% less than he's asking. There is no reason for him to flush this down the toilet at 20 million yen because the Japanese market will support the price. 

 

Some things actually are rare. And people who treat rare things like they are commodities kind of get it wrong. There actually are collectors who want something special and beating someone else down by 10% is secondary to owning something significant. 

 

This is a perfect example of real rarity. There are 45 signed examples at Juyo of which 20 of them are katana. 

 

So ... if you want one this is your chance. And it would be typical for a westerner to think, as mentioned above, that there are more of these than there really are and they can just talk him down from his price by 20% because hey, it's an asking price so it means he's trying to scam someone. People have a lot of trouble trying to peg what the value is and in these cases their approach to trying to discover the price is by probing and it just reveals that they don't know. 

 

For me this one is a learning opportunity and it's nice to see something like this become available. It's a really rare thing. I have more questions about it than statements. It is not the most flashy work of Kiyomaro but it is not sleepy. I think its solid but there are only a limited number of them, and this one represents 5% so where did it come from and why was it buried so long? Those are not suspicious questions those are just questions.

 

This is going to be the only opportunity many people would have in their life to ever buy one. If someone had the kind of cash that they can knock something like this down and they are a significant collector of swords then this is one to buy I think. 

 

More people do need to understand rarity though. Surely there are more buried out there. Not the majority. As I wrote earlier nobody knows what is truly out there but after 60 years a lot of what we'd expect to come out has indeed come out. We're not at the point where we can dismiss surprises from ever happening, we're more at the point of knowing that there WILL be something exciting popping out every year at Juyo. But we are I am pretty sure past the peak and on the downswing. 

 

Over time less and less like this will manifest themselves out of thin air. For those of unlimited budget, this is an opportunity.

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Also one of the reasons for his auctions is that the auctions have no return policy. If you are selling something like this you don't want it to go overseas and then come back because the guy got a panic attack and returned it. You want no backsies. So he uses the auction to enforce no backsies. If you step in to buy this you know you're doing it without any return policy and if I were the seller deciding it to go I wouldn't want someone getting buyer's remorse after going through all the shades of excitement for nailing something in the treasure hunt. It's probably the primary reason to auction it. 

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Also one of the reasons for his auctions is that the auctions have no return policy. If you are selling something like this you don't want it to go overseas and then come back because the guy got a panic attack and returned it. You want no backsies. So he uses the auction to enforce no backsies. If you step in to buy this you know you're doing it without any return policy and if I were the seller deciding it to go I wouldn't want someone getting buyer's remorse after going through all the shades of excitement for nailing something in the treasure hunt. It's probably the primary reason to auction it. 

 

Ah, that's a good point (no return policy). Something I hadn't even considered. 

 

"So when you watch something like this go by you should pay attention. And don't just assume that he's reaching for the clouds with his price and he will deal it out the back door for 30% less than he's asking. There is no reason for him to flush this down the toilet at 20 million yen because the Japanese market will support the price."

 

Oh, I am paying attention. I understand that it is quite rare. Considered to be one of the best Shinshinto smiths, who committed suicide at age 42.

Never said anything about prospective buyers expecting to get this sword for a 20 - 30% discount. If that seemed to be implied, then my mistake. All I was saying was that I do not believe that prospective buyers of this sword would appreciate being forced to commit to "point and click" in order to acquire it. Does that make sense? Maybe I am just old fashioned, and relatively poor, to even consider doing so for such a major purchase as this. Maybe it's not so different from a Christie's or Bonhams auction, in principle. I don't know. Let's see if any bids surface. Anyone want to bet on it? I think that it will sell (perhaps for same as asking price, or just a bit less) but only after the auction has closed. If you bid on it, then you have to let us know.

 

I am sure that all NMB members who have read this thread will now be watching this auction with keen interest. 

 

Pietro

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If he put this for 7 days then this auction will I think end with no bidders. It's not enough time horizon to catch the notice of someone who may want it and be able to pay for it (this kind of person is usually too busy to hit all the websites every day). Dealers that might have bought it quietly won't want to touch it because it will have radioactive eye dirt all over it now. It's not the normal blade for his clients or what they're used to. So though it's cheap they generally will find it to be expensive. I'd have brought it to Kurokawa san or Kawashima san or Myoga san and asked them to privately find a buyer if I were a Japanese owner of this sword and I think it would last no more than a month doing it like that. 

 

I am watching out of interest to see if someone is bold enough to make a move on it and if they do I will toast them. '

 

If you sell something at Christie's or Bonham's they are taking 35% of the sale. 25% from the buyer and 10% from the seller. For most people who are already bottom feeding this is a thought they can't bear accepting unless the entry price is already objectively extremely cheap. But anywhere near market value and the perception is that this is money the buyer is giving up and it has dried up a lot of the interest which used to be stronger in these auctions.

 

Those however are auctions that can reach outside of sword circles and a Kiyomaro is close to something that would be bought outside of sword circles, but I don't think so... without very fancy mounts. 

 

I did suggest to Christie's that they try a Hong Kong auction of higher end sword stuff and got back some possible interest but no followup since then. 

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Auction start price will be whatever his consigner was asking, plus come commission for himself. It will be to see how much more he can get than the minimum price.

I agree with Darcy. There are other avenues where this will sell and probably will sell. This sounds like a bit of promotion knowing word will get around. Even if that word is not to the usual clientelle for this type of sword.
Of course, anyone who can pay that kind of money for a sword should and might hop on a plane to go see it. Few would spend that money over the internet unless from a very high end dealer they have a relationship with.

With the controversy over papers in 2014 (and again now) the buyer would need a guarantee that the papers are right of course. We have spoken before in the past how some will paper only to TH just to confirm the mei, and not bother going further if the outcome is certain.

Don't think it will sell on auction, but will probably sell just after before it is listed for sale.

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