Type 3 1945 Blade Production, And "hiro" Kanji

[Robinson Velasco]

Hey Steve and thank you. I definitely know that one of the stamps is a Ren- Nanman Arsenal Delian Factory stamp, the one that you might say is a seki, but I think it needs further research and I have been all over the internet and did find the stamp saying it was a Ren. My question is what does it really mean for the sword. From what I read, if i am correct, which I am a novice, is that a sword to have these 3 stamps are rare. The other stamp was a a gifu from a different angle and shade of light, but I'm not 100% positive. The Hiro throws me off, I have yet to find it, well again, I just may not be trained to see what you see. The Ren stamp or seki has me bugging out, from what I read was made in Manchuria, but it was, why the gifu stamps? I am restless with this puzzle.

[Robinson Velasco]

[Robinson Velasco]

Middle stamp from a online reference of a book

[SteveM]

I'm fairly certain its a Seki stamp (oriented sideways in the photo). Hiromitsu (civilian name Idō Junichi) was a Seki smith. 

 

廣光　Hiromitsu (much like the "Hiromitsu 2" found on this page http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/oshigata/index.htm )

 

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/seki.htm (広=廣)

[Robinson Velasco]

I'm fairly certain its a Seki stamp (oriented sideways in the photo). Hiromitsu (civilian name Idō Junichi) was a Seki smith.

 

廣光　Hiromitsu (much like the "Hiromitsu 2" found on this page http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/oshigata/index.htm )

 

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/seki.htm (広=廣)

This is the pic of my stamp and the screenshot with my same stamp referencing it to Ren - Nanman Arsenal Dalian Factory stamp from George Trotter quoting Ohmura, found this on a google search with info from many books and websites. I looked up seki stamp and it doesn't look like this. How can we verify this further? How can we verify if this was or wasn't made in the Nanman Arsenal Dalian Factory that was in Manchuria?

[SteveM]

 

It doesn't look like 連

It would be completely out of place if it were 連

 

It does look like 関 on its side

関 is entirely consistent with the Gifu stamp, and with the swordsmith. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Steve is right about the Seki stamp. It is simply struck poorly.

 

Robinson, would you mind posting a good shot of the full nakago side with the stamps? That last one defies anything I've seen so far.

[Robinson Velasco]

seki sideways.png

 

It doesn't look like 連

It would be completely out of place if it were 連

 

It does look like 関 on its side

関 is entirely consistent with the Gifu stamp, and with the swordsmith.

Steve is right about the Seki stamp. It is simply struck poorly.

 

Robinson, would you mind posting a good shot of the full nakago side with the stamps? That last one defies anything I've seen so far.

I can not argue with you both, I am untrained and as I further compared, you were right Steve. I will also assume this wasn't traditionally made, but made half traditional and with puddle steel. Am I right on that?

Yes Bruce, I will take pics of the stamps again. That last one is a bit weird and I've tried different shading.

[Bruce Pennington]

I can not argue with you both, I am untrained and as I further compared, you were right Steve. I will also assume this wasn't traditionally made, but made half traditional and with puddle steel. Am I right on that?

Yes Bruce, I will take pics of the stamps again. That last one is a bit weird and I've tried different shading.

thanks, but be sure to show the full length of the tang. I may matter where this last stamp is postioned. I'd appreciate that!

[Robinson Velasco]

Steve is right about the Seki stamp. It is simply struck poorly.

Robinson, would you mind posting a good shot of the full nakago side with the stamps? That last one defies anything I've seen so far.

Hi Bruce.here are the pics.

[Robinson Velasco]

More pics

[Robinson Velasco]

Last set of pics

[Robinson Velasco]

Sorry if I over did it Bruce. What do you think of that weird stamp?

[Robinson Velasco]

Same stamp turned around

[SteveM]

Another Gifu stamp.

[Bruce Pennington]

Yup! You got it!

[Robinson Velasco]

Yup! You got it!

Another Gifu stamp.

I think I see it too, I tried from different angles and lighting with shade, but you gentlemen are correct. Thank you both.

Do you think this is traditionally made or partly traditional with puddle steel instead tamahagane ore? Maybe last ditch effort? The sword has no serial numbers stamped anywhere.

[Dave R]

It's a commissioned officers sword, and as such a private purchase item rather than issue, and so would not have a serial number.

[SteveM]

The sword is what looks to be a decent, WW2 gunto from Seki. I am not familiar with the term puddle-steel. The swords were made to pretty high standards. They are are very collectible among the militaria aficionados. They aren't made from tamahagane, but it doesn't mean they are rubbish. We have a huge number of threads concerning the extent to which these swords were hand-made or machine-made. It would be hard to encapsulate it in a sentence or two, and its not my area of specialty, but if you search on one of those terms you should be able to find some useful information. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Robinson,

 

A list of the 9 ways blades were made during the war:

 

The stamps indicate the blade was not made in the traditional way. I appreciate your example, because it is only the second one I have record of, with both the Seki AND the Gifu stamp. Usually you will have one or the other. Gifu was a city in the Seki province, and Gifu started using their own stamp around 1944.

 

Here is the history of the "Type 3", or Contingency model (Rinji Seishiki, in Japanese): http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/deflating-another-myth-type-3-army-officera-s-sword-expanded-version-584796/

[Dave R]

The sword is what looks to be a decent, WW2 gunto from Seki. I am not familiar with the term puddle-steel. The swords were made to pretty high standards. They are are very collectible among the militaria aficionados. They aren't made from tamahagane, but it doesn't mean they are rubbish. We have a huge number of threads concerning the extent to which these swords were hand-made or machine-made. It would be hard to encapsulate it in a sentence or two, and its not my area of specialty, but if you search on one of those terms you should be able to find some useful information. 

 

 An explanation from someone more expert than myself. And part 2 explains the relationship between the two. 

[Dave R]

Further detail...   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddling_(metallurgy)

[Robinson Velasco]

Thank you so much Steve, Bruce and Dave. Sorry for the late response. Had a long family weekend. You all have open my eyes a bit more. Referring to puddle steel, I think Steve wasn't sure of what I meant, but one of you posted an article of different steels used. Puddle steel was referred to railway steel that was also used to build the Eiffel Tower. They found that it was just as good as Tamahagane ore, but was not considered traditional. The hiromitsu I have has 3 stamps and at one point I did read, but for the life of me, i can't find the article again, it said, that blades with 3 stamps did signify something above normal standard made blades. Blades usually only had 1 or 2 stamps with either a signature or unsigned. You guys made some really good points and I will remember them. Thanks guys.

As I am only a novice. I am really excited taking all this info in. I am on the hunt for antique blades from ww2 or older blades on gunto mounts. I'm leaning more to the ones being auctioned that are rusted. Reason why, is because I did clean up a 2nd sword that I had and gave it some life. It looks so much better now. I enjoyed the process and enjoyed the research. I was wondering if you gentlemen would take a look at these 2 swords and let me know if they are indeed old antique. I think they are, I'm not sure about the one with the tsuba with 2 fish design. I am afraid of all these chinese imitation, but I do think that I am a bit more informed now and know what to look for. I will post each sword in a different reply.

[Robinson Velasco]

Sword 1 has a design on blade. Chinese imitation? Boshi and kiyosaki are different maybe KAMASU-KISSAKI? I'm not to sure if tsuba is Japanese.

[Robinson Velasco]

Sword 2

[vajo]

Horrible fakes. Both are not what is called a Japanese sword. Sorry.

[Robinson Velasco]

Horrible fakes. Both are not what is called a Japanese sword. Sorry.

Yes sir, I was reading fake or real Japanese swords online and they both fit the description, well the 1st one does, I couldn't tell on the 2nd... my novice eyes need further training, I am only a padawan.

[Bruno]

Hi guys,

 

I need your experience regarding Type Koshirae.

 

I have seen some star stamp/RJT gendai-to mounted in Type 3 koshirae with the metal light brown scabbard and 1 button for the locking mechanism on the kuchi gane (plus dust cover).

 

All the showa-to I have seen mounted in the same scabbard do no have this extra button on the kuchi gane, but only one on the fuchi and no dust cover.

 

Do you guys have ever seen or have/had, a RJT gendai-to mounted in this kind of scabbard, without the dust cover and the second button on the kuchi gane?

 

I am looking for a Type 3 scabbard for my gendai-to and do not want to make any "historical" mistake.

 

Thanks for your help.

[Brian]

We have had a discussion on this before, and as far as I am aware, just about ALL swords in the unlaquered light coloured scabbards are Showato.
As always, there will be the odd exception to break the rule, but I think it is often enough to make it a general likelihood.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ahhhhh! Brian used the "all"-word!!! Ok, you qualified that with the "exceptions clause", whew! Ha!

 

If you want to go with the "norm" the gendaito in Contingency fittings (Type 3, 0, Rinji-seishiki), will have the double release buttons and dust-cover seppa. Many have the laquered wooden saya, but I personally have an RJT stamped 1945 Kunitoshi in a metal saya (double buttons & dust cover). I have recently seen 1 in the light tan, single button saya, as well.

 

So, there are exceptions to every rule in shingunto. You might have a hard time finding the laquered wooden saya, though, on the market. You might have some luck finding the dust-cover seppa, or having one made.