Sugata Exercise Answers Posted

[paulb]

I was going through some images and came across the one below. It was something I had planned to post but dont remember doing so. If I have and it is lurking around somewhere then please ignore it. If not take a look and see what you think.

When you read the essays of Walter Compton he emphasises the need to look at the shape of a blade before looking at any other detail. The shape is key. As I have said before the shape can't tell you how old a sword is,but it can tell you how new it is. What I mean by this is that copies of older styles were made throughout history so you can see Shin-shinto swords with Nambokucho shape but if a sword has a typical Kanbun sugata you know it cannot be earlier than shinto.

The identification of age through shape is complicated further when a blade is shortened and the key is to try and imagine what the ubu blade would be like. Not easy but with practice not so difficult either.

The swords below are, with one exception, o-suriage. They cover a very wide range of manufacturing dates.

Take a look and see if you can place them in time. The images delibrately dont show much detail of the construction or hamon as the idea is to work out as much as you can based on shape alone.

There is enough visible to enable someone to establish date and in most cases even an idea of the tradition or school.

I hope this might be a useful exercise and demonstrate the impotance of looking at shape before diving in to other detail.

[CSM101]

Thought I play a little bit with the details.

 

 

My guess: 4 is Kamakura, 3  = Nambokucho and 1 and 2 Shinto. Kambun and Keicho.

 

 

 

Uwe G.

[paulb]

Hi Uwe

thank you for the re-orientation it helps.

Also thaks for being the first to have a go. I can understand your thinking but remember that 3 of these are O-suriage so the shape you are seeing may mislead you a little. I will leave it for while so others can have a go if they want.

[Jean]

For the fun:

 

1 - shinto kanbun

2 - late Kamakura

3 - Nambokucho (1355-1361)

4 - Late Heian beginning of Kamakura

[tagheuer]

I'm a newbie here, but it's too much to resist...

 

1. Edo / Kanbun

2. Momoyama / Keicho

3. Nambokucho

4. Late Kamakura

[jct3602]

I am willing to learn from my own ignorance, so I will try: 4 - kamakura, 3 - nanbukucho, 2 - early Shinto, 1 - early 1500s muromachi.

 

     john

[Grey Doffin]

Not wanting to be the only fool not publicly recognized as such:

From top to bottom...

1.  Early Shinto

2.  Muromachi

3.  Shinshinto or Nambokucho

4.  Kamakura

 

Grey

[Kronos]

1. Kanbun

2. late kamakura

3. Mid nanbokucho

4. Mid kamakura

 

#4 is particularly difficult to place precisely in the kamakura although it has a feeling of rai.

[SAS]

1 early Kamakura 2 late Kamakura 3 Nambokucho 4 late Heian/ early Kamakura 

[Caleb Mok]

(Please forgive the GNNARRRRR! my ignorance may give)

4 is the only pre-Muro Koto; all others are shinto or later because of funbari. I think "the one exception not O-suriage" is either 1 or 2...it may be a "trick" i.e. ~not O-suriage, but suriage~.  If the exception really is either 1 or 2, i'd have to go with 2 because the kissaki has less fukura, and the funbari is slightly less (though still very noticeable) in which case it is mid-Muro or late-Muro because i don't know why it looks a little saki-sori to me... And 2 can't possibly be a real O-suriage Nanbokucho simply because they do not exist/are very rare i.e. i'm purposely being an idiot and i'm ~feeeeel'n lucky~

-Caleb

 

EDIT: nevermind, 1 is ubu, 2 is O-suriage mid/late Muro

Edited October 28, 2015 by klebics

[J Reid]

1. Kanbun shinto

2. Late kamakura/ early nambokucho

3. Mid nambokucho

4. Late heian/early kamakura

[paulb]

Well done all those who have had a go so far. So far most people have got some right or are hovering around the right period but no-one has them all right.

This isnt really aimed at showing who knows what but I wanted to explore the idea so often seen in literature that "The shape tells you the period" The fact is it can only really do that if it is ubu and as said above all it can tell you is that "it wasn't made before xxxx"

I will let this run until later today in case anyone else wants to have ago in the meantime thanks to those who have had a go.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Paul,

 

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

 

I'll take a stab:

 

1. Kanbun shinto

2. Muromachi

3. Nanbokucho

4. Kamakura

 

Best,

John

[BIG]

1. Shinto

2. Nambokucho

3. Momoyama

4. Kamakura

 

Best Regards

[Ian]

My best guesstimate

 

1. Kanbun shinto

2. Early Nambokucho

3. Momoyama

4. Mid Kamakura

[Caleb Mok]

Well done all those who have had a go so far. So far most people have got some right or are hovering around the right period but no-one has them all right.

This isnt really aimed at showing who knows what but I wanted to explore the idea so often seen in literature that "The shape tells you the period" The fact is it can only really do that if it is ubu and as said above all it can tell you is that "it wasn't made before xxxx"

I will let this run until later today in case anyone else wants to have ago in the meantime thanks to those who have had a go.

I will change my prediction then: no koto, all shinto and after... Even a meiji-to, heck, even a showa-to!

[seattle1]

Hello:

 1. Late Shinto/early shinshinto.

 2. Early Muromachi.

 3. Early Nanbokucho.

 4. Early Kamakura.

 Arnold F.

[Kronos]

Can we get some measurements when you post the answer?

 

If I'm wrong on at least one I'll change my answer for #4 to Oei.

[paulb]

Sorry James

I should have included these at the beginning I have listed them below. I will post the answers this evening to give people a chance to reconsider or have a first attempt in the meantime. All dimensions are in CM

 

                 Sugata          sori          motohaba      sakihaba           kasane

 

1                 65.5             1.2             2.7                  1.8                  0.68

 

2                 67.8             1.2             3.0                   1.9                 0.6

 

3                 68.0             1.5             2.91                  2.1                0.7

 

4                68.5              1.8             2.5                    1.8                 0.5

[Jean]

Rather than editing my post, after studying again the blades. Here is my last conclusion:

 

1 - Shinto Kanbun

2 - Late Muromachi

3 - Nambokucho (1355-1361)

4 - Middle Kamakura (1220)

[Caleb Mok]

Anyone else think the hi in the tang of #4 (presumably O-suriage because 3 out of 4 isn't bad) is not koshi-sori enough to be kamakura?

[Kronos]

Anyone else think the hi in the tang of #4 (presumably O-suriage because 3 out of 4 isn't bad) is not koshi-sori enough to be kamakura?

 

If O-suriage then the koshi-sori would mainly be near the original machi so it fits.

 

The only thing I can think of is that #1 isn't ubu and/or #2 is suriage and not O-suriage.

[paulb]

depends which definition of O-suriage you use

1. All of the original nakago is removed

2. All of the mei is removed (this means that some of the original nakago and the original mekugi ana may still be present.

 

for all of these swords I have used the description used on the papers

 

Regards

Paul

[Alex A]

If I'm wrong its because I rushed to get the results in on time

 

1) Shinto.

 

2) Mid Nanbokucho

 

3)Late Kamakura

 

4)Early Kamakura.

[chrstphr]

1. Shinshinto

 

2. Shinto

 

3. Shinto

 

4. Kamakura

 

 

Chris

[paulb]

Dear All

Thank you to all those who took the trouble to have a go at this exercise. It wasn’t intended as a competition it was an attempt to get people thinking about what we are told and how we apply it.

Two things virtually all books tell us:

1. Shape indicates age.
2. Look and understand the shape before you look at anything else.

In a perfect world these represent good advice, however once a sword is modified looking at the shape is not enough. I was impressed that nearly everyone was hovering around the right answers, some slightly better than others. If I was awarding prizes (which I am not) I think it would have to go to Arnold who was pretty well there or there abouts on all counts. The answers:

1. Shin-Shinto (1860s)
2. Momoyama more specifically Tensho (1578-1590)
3. Late Kamakura (1320-1330)
4. Early to mid Kamakura (1215-1220)

Explanation:

1. An ubu Mumei Katana papered to Hosakawa Tadamasa of the 1860s. It is a Yamashiro/Enju lookalike with beautiful jigane and a ko-nie hamon. Without the luxury of the paper my first guess on this would have been Hizen based on an ageless elegant shape and the tight hada. The NTHK papered it but to be honest I am still trying to understand the attribution to the Hosakawa school although I can understand the dating.

 

1.  An O-suriage katana attributed to O-Kanemichi (Dai-Do) and dated to Tensho. The original   shape would have been considerably longer slim and elegant. The hada and hamon clearly show the Mino roots. I have had this sword for many years but to be honest have studied everything but the shape so have taken the papers at face value. If after further research this doesn’t seem right I will come back to you.

 

 

1. An O-suriage tachi attribute to Aoe Tsunetsugu and dated to the late Kamakura. I also thought Nambokucho when I first saw it. It is a large sword with an extended chu-kissaki so the nambokucho dating was understandable. However as an Aoe sword if it did date to Nambokucho it would be even bigger ,with an O-kissaki. More importantly the hamon would be nioi based, a lot more flamboyant and there would be shirrake utsuri. In this case the blade has a ko-nie deki hamon a huge amount of ji-nie and jifu (I know you can’t see it in the images but bear with me) The other real clincher is the turn back on the boshi is very sharp and according to the papers this is a strong indicator of Kamakura period Aoe workmanship.

 

1. A Kamakura period Tachi attributed to the Awataguchi smith Norikuni who was working circa 1215-1222 so depending on where you choose to draw the line early or mid Kamakura. This is a classic early Yamashiro shape or would have been prior to shortening. Even in its shortened state there is evidence of slight fumbari and it is just koshi-zori. Equally important and indicative of very early swords is the straightness almost appearing as uchi-zori in the last 10-20cm of the blade. I have seen this feature on a high proportion of older blades and personally think it is a good indicator of age when the more obvious features at the other end have been removed.

 

 

I think if there is any conclusion to be drawn from this small exercise it is that looking at one element of a sword is never enough you have to look at it as a whole and reach a conclusion on how the different elements work together. Having said that the results here also indicate that starting with the shape can put you very close to where you want to be and can at least reduce the search a little. Unfortunately it is one feature of the blade that we are inclined to ignore as we search hungrily for details of hamon and hada to determine who made something and when.

[Alex A]

Doh!, thought no2 could have been Late Muromachi, seem to have lead my self astray wondering about the nakago.

[Kronos]

I think if there is any conclusion to be drawn from this small exercise it is that looking at one element of a sword is never enough you have to look at it as a whole and reach a conclusion on how the different elements work together. Having said that the results here also indicate that starting with the shape can put you very close to where you want to be and can at least reduce the search a little. Unfortunately it is one feature of the blade that we are inclined to ignore as we search hungrily for details of hamon and hada to determine who made something and when.

 

Agreed, but with the caviat that looking at shape can get you almost there and with sugata elements such as niku etc that you can't tell from a photo and then use hada/hamon etc to either confirm or show it is a newer "utsushi" or whatever you want to call it.

 

I do have some thoughts on these particular swords though which i find to be somewhat exceptions (which is why I think you chose them?):

 

1: it's a kanbun shinto shape and size with maybe a little less tapering than one would expect so definitely an oddball but I suspect there's other features that would show it to be later and maybe a one off throwback by the smith to the kanbun time period.

 

2: I suspected maybe not O-suriage and just slightly suriage otherwise it'd be well over 80cm so I think you'll find the 2nd mekugi-ana is the original and maybe it was unsigned from the start. The momoyama shape after all is that of a cut down kamakura tachi with maybe a little saki-sori. I don't think you'll find a single example of an 80cm+ momoyama blade and saying O-suriage may of lead people astray as my definition of O-suriage is losing the entire original nakago.

 

3: fair enough, the kasane is a little thick for nanbokucho but O-kissaki swords like this started in late kamakura so no complaints from me.

 

4:  Meh, awataguchi not Rai, should of guessed when I went mid kamakura.

[paulb]

Hi James the only thing that supports the O-suriage view is the remains (very slight) of a mekugi-ana on the tip of the nakago. Of course this could have been a second hole put in to the end of the nakago rather than the original but I think that is what led to the original O-suriage call.

And while I appreciate your thoughts about my deliberate selection of these I am afraid I cant own up to such subtlety. I used what was available as long as I was happy I could explain what it was. I dont think they are a-typical at least 3 of them arent they are just modified over time.

[Kronos]

I think the NTHK dropped the ball on that one then. 1 and 3 are a bit atypical, 2 was just confusing with the osuriage call and 4 was spot on for early/mid kamakura. I just find it very frustrating.