Opinions On Cutting Test Blade…

[Swordlook]

I think everyone is familiar with Komonjo. He has nice cutting test blade on eBay. I think Chikuzen Fukuoka Koretsugu is a fairly high ranking smith as well as the tester Yamano Nagahisa. Anyone have any thoughts on this blade for the neophyte over here?

 

Thanks!

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SA739-Japanese-Samurai-Sword-NBTHK-Koretsugu-Katana-Cutting-Test-69-0-CM-/161869284803?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276

[Alex A]

Hello

 

If i were you, i would do some reading.

 

I mean well

[Brian]

Get a guarantee that it would pass shinsa if submitted for new papers.

[Swordlook]

Hey Alex,

 

No hard feelings here… I get it! ???? In the process of reading Markus Sesko book on tameshigiri. I learned a lot from my last post about the Goto Gozaeman cutting test blade I posted. If you have the time any insights about this blade would be great!

 

Hello Brian,

 

I have read both sides to older shinsa papers… I take it you believe there not that reliable?

 

- Ken

[Alex A]

Hi Ken, all I will say is do your homework, its a lot of money, check the sword and mei against other examples.

 

Over and out.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Brian is correct - the tokubetsu kicho papers are not deemed as valid as current papers. They used to be issued by field offices, rather than a central group and (one of) the concerns is that people paid for papers on big name, gimei blades. Currently, the NBTHK doesn't even recognize these papers as "Hozon" level. If, for example, you wanted to attempt to get this sword tokubetsu Hozon, juyo, or tokubetsu juyo, you would have to start fresh at Hozon as if this sword has no papers at all. I'm in no way saying the mei is good or bad, nor the cutting test, nor the papers - just stating the facts and that since the NBTHK would look at this as though it had no papers, you should as well and follow the advice given and do a hefty amount of legwork on the mei, craftsmanship, and the cutting test - since those are also frequently added/faked.

[Swordlook]

I guess buying swords with old papers should be added to the list?

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12646-advices-for-newbies-buyers-rules-of-thumb/

[Alex A]

Haha, well done Ken.

[Jean]

As Joe stated, these old papers are no more valid so blades are no more certified.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Just to extend this thread a little further I wonder whether we should be so quick to set older papers aside when they no longer are integral and necessary steps up the NBTHK ladder to sword certification heaven? There have been localized dishonest practices on some NBTHK papers decades ago, and while for various reasons it is now necessary to start the Juyo process with the blade having attained a Tokubetsu Hozon paper, and the older Kicho and Tokubetsu Kicho as well as the Koshu Tokubetsu Kicho are now disestablished as part of that process. I say "disestablished" rather than "invalid" as they former is procedural in nature and the validity, that is the representational truth of the older individual papers as to correctness and quality, have not necessarily suddenly become unreliable. After the war the old Juyo Bijutsuhin were disestablished, though curiously they still may not be exported legally from Japan, and the Juyo Bunkazai designation was awarded to some. I have never heard of anyone unwilling to own a Juyo Bijutsuhin sword.

 Similarly after the war it was years until the Tokubetsu Kicho designation came into use and many blades that would eventually become Juyo and Tokubetsu Juyo had only the Kicho paper, and early ones of which, should you find one, could well represent a potential treasure. By the same token the Koshu Tokubetsu Kicho papers, issued for a few years locally and in Tokyo, were heralded as one step down from Juyo.

 I just think we should be a little careful about our assessment of older papers. I suspect that the vast majority that are associated with signed (!) swords are correct. Every sword should be judged on its merits, and that goes without saying. The Koretsugu at the start of all this appears to be okay, the write up, short on description, needs a lot of careful filling out. The Chikuzen Ishido group is a good one and Koretsugu and Moritsugu are excellent smiths. The group usually followed Ichimonji models and have some degree of utsuri. It might be there and it would be nice to have been in a detailed write-up.

 Arnold F.

[SwordGuyJoe]

I don't think anyone said that all Kicho papers are wrong.  I stated a fact that the NBTHK doesn't recognize them anymore and, at least in their eyes, for good reason.  I merely stated that fact and due to that, one should apply the same rigor in analyzing a mei and the craftsmanship as they do with a blade without papers (and honestly, all swords, if we're honest - since even NBTHK and both NTHK branches make mistakes).  Many think, "It has papers, so it's legitimate!" and it's important to call out that that isn't exactly so.  

[SteveM]

For me, there are four elements to this: ebay, questionable papers, high price, neophyte. And maybe all of these issues are wrapped up in one inevitable, recurring, problematic theme: valuation.

 

Its a beautiful sword, and at $9000, it should be. Considering the request for general thoughts and comments, the advice given was pretty appropriate. It would be irresponsible to encourage a neophyte to buy a $9000 sword with old papers even though there is a chance that the papers are valid. The obvious question is; why didn't the previous owner (or the current dealer) re-submit to shinsa? In Japan, the big dealers would certainly have done this to validate the sword, and to increase the price. Or, they would guarantee the sword will pass shinsa, which mitigates the consumer's risk pretty effectively.

 

I don't know whether or not the dealer on ebay will do the same. If so, the risk is mitigated (but it is still a rather expensive sword for a neophyte, but this is my subjective opinion...for Ken S it might not be that big of a purchase). 

 

The old authentication could still be valid, but as long as there is doubt over the old papers, we have to treat them as suspect, and we have to tell/remind the neophytes that the papers are suspect. If we were just enjoying the sword and talking about its shape and hamon and activity, we can look at and judge the sword for what it is. Once we start talking about price, the question of papers and shinsa cannot be ignored. 

 

On the signature itself, this is where the NBTHK becomes a frustrating black box for me, as they will not publish the details of why they pass or fail certain signatures. If I compare the signatures of the sword in question, with a certified signature from the same smith (for example, here http://www.samuraisword.com/nihontodisplay/Hozon/Koretsugu/4%20koretsugu0003.JPG)the signatures look very similar. If it is a counterfeit, we can say that the counterfeiter was pretty skilled. Still, there are some differences. The tsuki part of 前 in the ebay sword is squarish, while the same part in the authenticated sword is roundish. The 住 in the ebay sword is somewhat horizontally elongated, with the horizontal strokes all intersecting as they should, while the authenticated signature is elongated vertically, with a distinct separation of the main horizontal stroke.

 

If I look at yet another NBTHK Koretsugu (http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2014/14473-1.jpg) it has the same rounded tsuki in 前, and the same separated bits of 住. So it has these bits in common with the other papered Koretsugu. 

 

Are any of these minor variations problematic enough to cause the ebay sword to fail shinsa? I don't know, and I can't know unless I'm friends with the gentlemen of the NBTHK. That, for me, is enough to make me paranoid about paying $9000 for a sword - even though it means I may be rejecting a perfectly beautiful sword with obviously beautiful features. This is kind of an irrationality imposed on the market by the NBTHK, albeit an irrationality which is set up to try to protect the industry. 

 

SteveM

[seattle1]

Hello:

Points well taken Joe and Steve. I didn't say any one person dismissed Kicho but I do want to lean on the quickness in general to dismiss old papers disestablished from the current NBTHK submission processes.

For a quick look at a Juyo Koretsugu mei take a look at the one Aoi has for sale. It is not uncommon for Koretsugu and Moritsugu mei not to be accompanied with a date by the way.

The Koshu TK paper is an early one, some were local but I don't know about the place of issue for that one. I think the local ones were the problem papers. I saw someone recently advertising their interest in buying (?) blades with Koshu TK papers.

The blade in question seems to be a little suriage which might explain some things like the test and the price.

Arnold F.

[Kronos]

The sword is in Japan, why wouldn't you get modern papers on a $9000 sword if it would pass?

 

It all depends on your confidence in your own ability to kantei this accurately. If you feel your ability is good enough buy it, if not that's what papers are for.

[SwordGuyJoe]

The sword is in Japan, why wouldn't you get modern papers on a $9000 sword if it would pass?

 

I completely agree. Since it's there, I would contact the seller and see if he would offer a shinsa guarantee. There is a shinsa next week. Arrange the agreement to be that you would pay for shinsa and handling charges (and likely a down payment on the sword) and once it passes, you will pay for the remainder of the sword. The catch for you is that, I believe, results won't be available until February - so a wait is coming for you to receive the sword.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Notwithstanding everyone's comments & arguments, don't forget the old & very true adage, "BUY THE SWORD, NOT THE PAPERS."

 

Ken

 

[SwordGuyJoe]

Well said!

[Alex A]

Personally, I would never part with any cash on the promise of a Shinsa guarantee, unless it was by someone I have known for a long time and trust.

 

Ken S, don't buy a sword with a ?, simple as that.

[Jamie]

If there is s sword worth being papered for sale in Japan,

But it isn't papered with current papers there might be a reason. Papers make a sword more valuable period. So think about that.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Jamie, by having origami, you have one more piece of provenance, not necessarily a more valuable sword. Many of us wouldn't pay an extra penny for a blade we didn't like, papers or not.

 

However, if we had a blade we liked, & wanted to be more certain that we had correctly identified school & smith, we might choose to send it to shinsa to confirm (or deny) what we thought. If you think origami will make your blade a better investment, then you're a dealer, not a collector!

 

Ken

 

[Jamie]

Ken,

I agree completely. I just arranged to buy an Unpapered sword myself.

 

I am collector. Not a dealer. But that doesn't make what I said before incorrect.

It also depends on the level of paper. I'd find it hard to argue though. Do you not agree that given any high quality sword would be worth more with juyo papers than tokobetsu hozon?

[SteveM]

 by having origami, you have one more piece of provenance, not necessarily a more valuable sword.

 

I disagree with this. But the disagreement may be a semantic one. Provenance and authentication definitely influence value. In any form of art. And an NBTHK certification is an important piece of provenance. The certification does nothing to change the quality of the sword itself, but the sword's value is influenced by the NBTHK certificate. 

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

Do you not agree that given any high quality sword would be worth more with juyo papers than tokobetsu hozon?

Yes, we're definitely into semantics now.  My take on "value" is that the blade means something to ME, enough so that I'm willing to spend my retirement dollars to buy it.  If I like (value) the blade enough, I can make a decision on whether to buy it.  The cost of the blade is a totally different beast, in my eyes.  The cost just shows how the SELLER values the sword, & may be based on provenance, such as TH, Juyo, etc.  By the way, I'd much rather have a sayagaki by Kunzan or Honami Kozon than an NBTHK paper...keeping in mind that NBTHK has been known/shown to make errors.  Seeing a photo of the blade in a reference book is another preferred way to identify a blade, which would increase its value in my eyes.

 

Ken

 

[Jamie]

You're speaking about value to you, and I'm talking about the sword market.

Juyo swords sell for more than TH. I realize there is an exception somewhere. Like a healthy Nagamitsu with only TH would obviously possibly go for more than Juyo by a lower ranked smith.

But the same blade with Juyo papers will sell for more than it did with TH.

[Brian]

[SwordGuyJoe]

Interesting thread!  Does/can papers drive a higher value?  Certainly - especially when talking differences between hozon and TH, TH and Juyo, Juyo and TJ.  Jamie's point about an exception to that rule is absolutely correct.

 

In my case (a lowly collector of gendai work), most swords of mine command a pretty penny.  Even though, currently, there isn't a TON of gimei work (though it certainly is out there), I paper all of my swords to give buyers piece of mind when buying. Also, to acknowledge the fact that there is Shigetsugu gimei out there today and there will only be more by Okimasa, Shigemasa, Kuniie, etc. when I decide to sell in the future.  

 

Does this make the swords more valuable?  In the case of gendaito, I would say no (unless the sword has TH).  It simply makes the buyer more aware that the sword isn't gimei and it is who I say it is.  

 

Now, if we really want a decent conversation, we could ask, "How well do shinsa teams know and more importantly, respect, more modern work?"  The papering of gendaito is a relatively new thing (last 10-15 years) and certainly not what most panels are used to looking at/know without grabbing a book.  So they are far less informed when it comes to variation of work and mei styles by a single smith.  My personal opinion is that some groups lean more to the "Paper it, it's probably right" and I believe that leads to gimei work being papered (I know of one example for sure).  Some on the other hand think, "I'm not sure, let's not pass it."  

 

As far as the "respect" element, I passed about a half-dozen swords through NTHK shinsa in Chicago ranging from very good to exceptional examples including a Meiji sword from Masayoshi who is highly respected, and he learned from Gassan Sadakazu and Miyamoto Kanenori - the only two teishitsu-gigei´in of the time.  His work is extremely rare as, much like Okimasa, died at a very young age. 

 

All swords, every single one, received 70 points (the lowest score possible to still receive papers).  Reminded me very much of the Hawley method of rating gendai work - everything receives 8 points (well except "Mantetsu", who's expertly mass-produced showato receives 10 points ).

[Jean]

Joe,

 

When you say "give buyers piece of mind" do you mean that before they were brainless LOL ( I could not resist)

 

More seriously, NBTHK drives the market. Not later than today or yesterday, I saw a NTHK certified blade on Aoi Japan where Tsuruta san guaranteed Hozon Kanteisho were the blade submitted to NBTHK .shinsa...

 

Simple, are you willing to pay a blade 9K$ with an old certificate. In this case the certificate is there to justify the price but due to NBTHK policy and the suspicion they put on old papers, people won't accept only new ones. Kunitaro san who knows perfectly the market told me than no one in Japan will be accepting a blade with old papers, suspicion on old papers is entertained by NBTHK when they ask to start again from scratch in shinsa if one wants an old certificate blade to be certify on the new system.

 

 

Conclusion: concerning what Ken was saying, first the blade and then the certificate, both are totally linked and you cannot separate them. Papers give you a guarantee concerning the quality and the value of a blade. Yes the level of the paper directly influence the sword price. My Yasumitsu is priced 2M¥ with TH would it be Juyo, its value will be more than doubled. Should the blade have had no certificate, it would have cut the blade value by half.

 

The paper places the blade in a quality/price scale.

[SwordGuyJoe]

When you say "give buyers piece of mind" do you mean that before they were brainless LOL ( I could not resist)

 

Anyone who pursues (and pays the price I do) for gendai work needs to be medically reviewed, if not committed.  I just assume others are in a similar hopeless state!

[w.y.chan]

Brian is correct - the tokubetsu kicho papers are not deemed as valid as current papers. They used to be issued by field offices, rather than a central group and (one of) the concerns is that people paid for papers on big name, gimei blades. Currently, the NBTHK doesn't even recognize these papers as "Hozon" level. If, for example, you wanted to attempt to get this sword tokubetsu Hozon, juyo, or tokubetsu juyo, you would have to start fresh at Hozon as if this sword has no papers at all. I'm in no way saying the mei is good or bad, nor the cutting test, nor the papers - just stating the facts and that since the NBTHK would look at this as though it had no papers, you should as well and follow the advice given and do a hefty amount of legwork on the mei, craftsmanship, and the cutting test - since those are also frequently added/faked.

 

 

The link posted earler was out of date.

Looks like NBTHK has changed the rules on Tokubetsu Kicho paper

 

 

Wah