Can Someone Help Explaining The Following Price/tsuba

[Fuuten]

Hi,

 

I just stumbled across this tsuba and because i'm not versed in tosogu (even less than nihonto), i'm kinda stumped why this tsuba has this kind of pricetag.

 

http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00236.html

 

Sure it has Tokubetsu Hozon origami but the tsuba is unsigned (katana size i think(?)), and with no specific attribution to some master artisan.

 

Can someone explain to me why this tsuba is such a great  piece and worthy of the taq?

 

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Axel

[christianmalterre]

well, 1. this Tsuba got attribution to Tokubetsu Hozon Owari obviously....

2. it got attribution to the Owari

3. and here i do personally fully agree- this is an outstanding example left- to the Owari group of Sukashi Tsuba.

 

i have seen it some time ago...and i do confirm,it is a good and representative object!

 

no complaint from mine part at all!

 

(why do not buy it if it does please you?)

 

Christian

[Fuuten]

Well regarding those points:

1. Tokubetsu, i mentioned sure price is higher.

2. I don't know enough about tosogu to say, ehm thats a certain school and not many examples are left, so its rare.

3. Nothing to add.

 

Like i said i stumbled on it and see opening post.

 

I do not specifically like or dislike it, besides i've been broke for a year+ now..

 

All in all i'm just wondering what makes it so special, rare or fantastic.

[Antti]

There are plenty of Owari tsuba left, it is not that. It just happens to be a particularly pleasing example.

 

The fact that it is not signed is not important. Plenty of masterpieces are unsigned and plenty of rubbish tsuba are signed. Whether a tsuba has a signature or not makes no difference. Owari tsuba in general are unsigned.
A good tsuba is a good tsuba.

 

Why the high price? Well the easy answer is because the good people in Tsuruginoya think someone will pay that sum for it. And somebody just might.

[Brian]

I'm sure it is a great tsuba, and I understand how much good Owari are appreciated.
But I don't think someone is going to be able to explain to me why this is worth $13,500

Is it so much better than this Nishigaki Kanshiro 2nd at only $4500?

http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00246.html

[Fuuten]

Sorry, all i was looking for an like a short sort of sales speech highlighting why its so valuable, so i can learn the certain points of such a piece that make it so worthy. Just curious because to me i didn't see it matching the price tag, but then again i don't know much about tsuba, just inquiring.

[Antti]

That Nidai Kanshiro is to die for by the way.

[Curran]

I've been too busy with work and grad school to do more than barely lurk, but cannot stay away.

 

Nidai Kanshiro:   As Antti said, surprisingly good nidai Kanshiro at a fair price. Bargain price since current NBTHK doesn't seem able to paper Kanshiro at the moment.

Some Japanese dealers furious with them, and you know it is bad if they are willing to talk trash w/ westerners. I just saw one in GinzaChoshuya with recent 'Higo' papers and tried not to laugh (feel sorry for the dealer).

Maybe Ito-san should start issuing papers.

 

The Owari:   I don't know.

Top ones exponentially go up in price, but the first time I saw this link before they corrected it- I don't believe it had the 1 million in front of it.

I'm not joking. It says Momoyama on it, so I don't know any better than anyone else. I'd expect this in the 550,000 to 750,000 yen range.

So the price on this one has been a mystery to me too.

[BMarkhasin]

Regarding the Owari, papers are absolutely irrelevant. At this pricepoint, you better bloody well know what you are buying, or simply have more money than brains. You absolutely have to handle pieces being sold at these price points.  It is the subtleties which drive price well beyond the established 'norm'.  Personally, like Curran, I am also scratching my head on this one (despite it being very pleasant), but also realize I may be missing something.  I recently saw a tsuba with a US$16k price tag by photo, and thought exactly the same thing - why??  Then I saw it in hand, and the price became upper-end but justifiable.  There is however the over-ambitious Japanese dealer factor to consider here...

 

Boris.

[Steve Waszak]

Axel,

 

Haki is a Japanese term I have seen translated as "power," or "unbridled spirit."  It is used (among other applications, I imagine) to describe works that are particularly expressive in terms of boldness.  Early (pre-Edo) Owari tsuba, more than most, possess great haki.  They are often large, with heavy, wide rims and sukashi walls, restrained tekkotsu, and bold, direct, symmetrical designs, exuding potent martial confidence.  They are usually not "poetic" in the way Kyo-sukashi and Akasaka tsuba can be (often to the point of mawkishness, I think, but that's just me).  Their forging and steel quality in general is said to be very high.  Sasano called Owari sukashi tsuba the ultimate when it comes to guards expressing martial power and spirit in the eyes of the bushi of the time.  And it is true, too, in my experience, that when one sees a great Owari tsuba from this period and of this size---in person---the effect is memorable in a way few other tsuba can match.  For lack of a better term, they "pop" with boldness, making other tsuba around them lifeless and dull by comparison.  Again, this effect may be hard to experience just from photos. 

 

I would guess that the tsuba in question possesses significant haki, and that, in person, it dominates the space around it.  Personally, I find the piece to be a bit too busy (I prefer a sparer design), but yeah, old, large, haki-infused Owari guards in great condition (terrific patina) can command such prices.  They are rather rare.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Pete Klein]

This is the advertising piece which gets you to go to the table to see it, then everything else.  Marketing 101:

 

 

PS:  If I had the money I'd probably purchase it at the DTI but since I cannot afford to go to the DTI my dreams are of the pipe...

[SAS]

I am unsophisticated  when it comes to tsuba, but when a tsuba price exceeds that of many swords I would be happy to own it makes me wonder.....

[Curran]

  I recently saw a tsuba with a US$16k price tag by photo, and thought exactly the same thing - why??  Then I saw it in hand, and the price became upper-end but justifiable. 

 

Yes, this is a danger with Owari and some of the related schools. I'd seen a certain Owari tsuba in two or three (c.1960s) books and not been that impressed. Frankly, my eyes just skipped over it.

Then saw it up and For Sale (the No Listed Price type) a day or two before the 2014 DTI in Japan. It had recent papers.

     Whoa Smack.... what old Black n White photos failed to capture! That one had me come back to the USA and look at some of the older books different-  trying to learn to see past the little bits of distortion. Sometimes the ability to see a piece at an angle makes a world of difference.

 

I'd thought to add after my first post that the Larger Owari in good preservation from earlier dating tend to command much more in price. Steven sort of hit on that. There is a Juyo one sometimes shown that doesn't charm me that much more than others, but:

                       (a) it is a bit larger than most

                       (b ) feels slightly older than most.

Guess that makes the price difference. With this dealer one as large as it is, maybe that is part of it?

[Peter Bleed]

This is a fabulous thread that has entertained, educated, and vexed me. Thank you, thank you! This is why NMB exists!

P

[Fuuten]

Axel,

 

Haki is a Japanese term I have seen translated as "power," or "unbridled spirit."  It is used (among other applications, I imagine) to describe works that are particularly expressive in terms of boldness.  Early (pre-Edo) Owari tsuba, more than most, possess great haki.  They are often large, with heavy, wide rims and sukashi walls, restrained tekkotsu, and bold, direct, symmetrical designs, exuding potent martial confidence.  They are usually not "poetic" in the way Kyo-sukashi and Akasaka tsuba can be (often to the point of mawkishness, I think, but that's just me).  Their forging and steel quality in general is said to be very high.  Sasano called Owari sukashi tsuba the ultimate when it comes to guards expressing martial power and spirit in the eyes of the bushi of the time.  And it is true, too, in my experience, that when one sees a great Owari tsuba from this period and of this size---in person---the effect is memorable in a way few other tsuba can match.  For lack of a better term, they "pop" with boldness, making other tsuba around them lifeless and dull by comparison.  Again, this effect may be hard to experience just from photos. 

 

I would guess that the tsuba in question possesses significant haki, and that, in person, it dominates the space around it.  Personally, I find the piece to be a bit too busy (I prefer a sparer design), but yeah, old, large, haki-infused Owari guards in great condition (terrific patina) can command such prices.  They are rather rare.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

 

Steve, (Boris, Curran, everyone),

 

Thank you for your replies.

 

Steve you hit exactly the right kind/tone of reply i was looking for, a detailed outline that taught me what it was about. Exactly what i was looking for

[SteveM]

Another thing that slightly inflates the price of this piece is its inclusion in the 日本刀大鑑　(Encyclopedia of Japanese Swords). Meaning it comes with a bit of a pedigree - its quality having been validated by the editors and publishers of the encyclopedia.

[Pete Klein]

Steve -- Thanks much. I knew I'd seen it before but didn't think to look there. Page nine. Yes, inclusion in the Nihonto Taikan does tend to bring the price up.

[manfrommagnum]

It is worth what someone is willing to pay.

 

Mike