Long Mumei Katana

[C0D]

Hello, i'm struggling to trying to identify the era, not to mention school, of this sword, so i thought to ask you for help.

These the specs:
 

Nagasa: 75.4 cm

Sori: 1.4 cm

Motohaba: 2.9 cm

Motokasane: 7 mm

Sakihaba: 16.5 cm

Sakikasane: 4.5 mm

 

[Caleb Mok]

Based on Markus Sesko's invaluable work to which i am sure many of us are most grateful, it appears to be an early Muromachi work.  I quote his website...I hope this is allowed

 

"The late Nanbokuchô period brought a turning away from the exaggerated mid-Nanbokuchô blade shapes. That means tachi still have a rather long nagasa and a shallow toriizori but the kasane increases a bit, the blades taper again, and the tip returns to a chû-kissaki"

 

As for anything beyond that, let's just say every time i try to give myself kantei when looking at pics of swords, i am almost always wrong.  Therefore I must refer you to a much better source:

 

http://markussesko.com/kantei/

 

-Caleb

 

EDIT: oops, totally missed the moto/saki gasane.  Very improbably koto then...would also explain the perfectly lathed/drilled i.e. not punched holes and the jihada that looks very, very not koto i.e. lacking nie/chikei.

Edited October 22, 2015 by klebics

[paulb]

Hi

I dont think it is that early, in fact I would suggest at first view it is much later. do you have an image looking down on to the border of the nakago and blade so we can see the difference in thickness?

 

Based on what can be seen so far the relative plainness of the hada and the bright tight nioiguchi suggest late Edo to me but that is more of a feeling than anything else.

[Kronos]

I did have a long post written with reasoning but deleted it by accident but imho it's kanbun shinto with a slight possibility of being early meiji.

[C0D]

I will take a picture later of nakago, i can tell you the thickness of nakago gets wider before taper to the nakagojiri, resulting in the habaki almost stuck when taking it out.

One idea about this sword was a well made shinshinto utsushi, also because the heavy feeling in hand

[paulb]

I think the "heavy in hand concept" is a bit mislleading. I have held a number of late kamakura blades which were substantial. All were nearer to 8 mm thick and very heavy. the cynic in me thinks the lightness associated with koto blades is simply that thy have been polished down over a longer period of time.

James I can understand your point of view but dont you think it appears a bit long (especially the nakago) for kanbun?

[SwordGuyJoe]

I'm in for late shinshinto.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

Please post image of ko shinogi/kissaki area from above?

 

Thank you.

[C0D]

some pictures of nakago

[C0D]

@Nagamaki here's the kissaki

[SwordGuyJoe]

Based on the condition of the machi and taking a better look at the steel, I take back my comment and agree with Koto.

[paulb]

still think it is later, but it wouldnt be the first time I was wrong and certainly not the last.

It just doesnt look old (i.e 5-600 years old)

[christianmalterre]

this is a Iai-To!

 

made (for Arnold!)

 

not more, nor less

 

Koto???????? :rotfl: :rotfl: !

(do keep up dreaming!)

 

 

Paul? did you play notice on the Nakago?

 

not to speak about "slightest" hataraki here ?....is there any?

 

Christian

[paulb]

Christian

For me the overall shape, especially the longish nakago and the patina of the nakago are the first reason I thought it was later. Second the vey tight nioi-gichi in combination with no obvious hataraki (as you say) and finally the lack of anything happening in the jigane.

It is always a pain to try and do this with photgraphs. Thank goodness kantei are generally based on a detailed description and oshigata which makes life much easier.

I am still in the very late camp and agree with you that I dont think it is koto.

We will see what else develops!

[christianmalterre]

dear Paul,

 

do have mine honest thanks for your´s "Gentlemen" statement!

 

well, it´s just a humbling getting here -"serious" boarding....(for guys like us, altimes needing to repeat same by same here on this board)

we did, i think, seriously improof (also thanks to Ford here!) into a more serious heading diriction to the field of Tosogu...

 

if i but,(!!!) do read such comments,(citation to the posts above)... i do really start to ask me about the He(?) !

 

Did they read?....certainly not!....did they study?...i really do ask mineself now!

 

(it is nice to have such persons like you here Paul!- otherwise i would since long days say "do let them play"...!)

 

just hope, the few who left will take the cards....

 

Chris

[Stephen]

yea what he said

 

id go with Bizen Shinshinto, and Franco was asking for a photo of the blade tip from above ...to see if it flares out be my guess

[C0D]

i know in the current polish status is quite hard to make some hypothesis, but here's some hataraki 

 

My thought would be for shinshinto too from beginning tho i wanted some not influenced opinion to see if something else would come out

[Brian]

Not iaito. Not with that jigane and hamon.

Maybe not a Koto, but certainly a big step above an iaito imho. The photos are a bit overexposed, so hard to judge from colour.

[paulb]

I dont think Iato either but will still hang on shinshinto

[Caleb Mok]

Sorry i edited my post instead of posting new because i didn't want my noob-ignorant posts everywhere...but i think that led to my edited comment becoming unnoticed, which though a good thing i.e. no one wants to hear a noob chime, i wanted to ask:

 

Does the meguki-ana being drilled/lathed/ or punched into perfectly circle or ~organic~ -looking holes ~actually~ hold any weight to age?  Thanks - Caleb

[Kronos]

100% not a koto. The photo showing the whole sword is at a strange angle so afer another look I'm leaning more to 1800's and less to kanbun-shinto but it's still between those two. It's an odd shape either way and a bit off anything textbook.

[christianmalterre]

@

klebics

 

it will certainly...

case here,.. it will but not! as it´s obviously.

 

your´s question is NOT! "unnoticed, which though a good thing"..!

 

in this "case" but, the point you shall head to, is:

1. Nakago(not possible!)

2. Boshi (Kissaki)(herein lack if authenticity!)

3. Hataraki (seemingly(???)-a very strong lack "off" equally!)

 

Iai-To(!) of modern, maybe 50 years apart forge?... Shin-Shinto certainly not equally, just mine feeling)(they did copy much much better indeed)

 

Christian

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

Thanks for that image of kissaki, would like to see it from above angle looking straight down on it. At this point would say muromachi, hamon reminds me of Bungo Takada.

[AndyMcK]

Definately not an iai-to, I would place it in the area of late shinto, early shinshinto, there is something familiar about the hamon that I can not place.

 

Antti

[SAS]

reminiscent of Mino togariba, but straight like Shinshinto Tosa.

[Alex A]

Hard to say from the pics (and nightshift eyes) but looks like the hamon may run down the nakago, which may suggest suriage, which may suggest why the nakago does not look so old. I suppose the two mekugi ana may back up that idea......notice the use of "may".

[C0D]

Gendaito simply it won't be due the lack of signature.

The hamon has not bright habuchi because it's all in konie deki, which might point towords the Mino area