Tsuba Id Help

[zanilu]

Dear All

 

First of all I am a complete beginner in study tosogu so all your comments are welcome.

 

I have bought a few years ago a tsuba with a dragon in clouds as waves depicted on it (see attached pictures).

The tsuna is mumei with dimensions of 72 mm x 67 mm, 3 mm thick at the mimi. The material is iron.

 

I have recently found a similar tsuba discussed in:

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/10748-1st-tsuba-purchase-info-on-tomokiyo-kao/

 

The design is quite similar both in subject ad realization.

My tsuba is in definitely whores conditions with some traces of corrosion, or at least so it seems to me. Or they could be traces of casting. Casting could explain also the fact that the clouds, dragon and waves seems to be no as well defined as in the similar tsuba I was referring above.

 

What is your opinion?

Could this tsuba be considered just a low quality cast copy or it could be considered a legit Choshu tsuba even though of lower quality compared to the above?

 

I have tried to remove as much rust as possible using cattle bone shims and rubbing it with rough cotton cloths following the advises I have found on this forum. The red rust seems to be quite stable and not active so far.

 

Thank you in advance for all your suggestions

 

 

Luca

[jlawson]

I would say this is likely a legitimate choshu tsuba that is mumei. Remember though that there were several schools in the same time period that made similar tsuba and it being unsigned is just an educated guess to Choshu. I don't think it is cast and it is actually rather nice, although I think the red rust should be addressed. 

[Brian]

Agree with James. It's real, no 100% identified school, but is ok. Not great, not terrible. Just an example of a real user tsuba.

[zanilu]

Brian, James

 

Thanks for the your indications.

 

James, I am working on the red rust with a lot of patience and ox bone...

 

Regards

Luca

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Luca,

Search the Message Board for fiberglass pen.  This will probably be a better tool for removing the red rust on the surface of all the small recesses of the carving.

Grey

[zanilu]

Hi Grey

 

Thank you for the suggestion. I will try it.

I have been working on the rust for some time now, first soaking the tsuba in wd40 as suggested by Elliot Long and then scraped it with cattle bone splinters. The rust is pretty hard, after more than 6 hours of total scraping time I have obtained few results so far.

How frustrating... 

 

Regards

Luca

[Brian]

I have a tsuba entirely covered in hard and stable built up rust that no amount of working at will make any dent at all.

I have given up on it, the rust is like cement.

[Curran]

Though it has been a long time since I worked on rust removal and TLC of a tsuba, I have a bit of experience there.

 

Some are just very difficult. It varies by age, school, pattern and "type" (a loose term, -I know) of rust.

Looking at yours, I figured if for very difficult. I did not think bone would be sufficiently hard.

 

The nature of the design and the pattern of the rust present quite a challenge, but you may learn a lot through doing.

[Stephen]

Send here mate, ill sand blast it for you...or try that electro dip thingy ...been wanting to try that on something rusty for sure...LOL

[zanilu]

Hi all.

 

Thanks for the tips (except for the sand blasting of Stephen  ).

Since I have to go abroad for a business trip I will put the project on hold for the some time. 

To avoid problems I was thinking to put some Renaissance wax on the tsuba to protect it temporarily until I resume the project.

To remove the wax I was thinking to first boil it and then brush it with a tooth brush and some isoproplyl alcool.

Then I will try with the fiberglass pen suggest by Grey.

Any suggestion?

[Grey Doffin]

Other possibilities that may or may not make sense.  Rather than wax how about choji oil?  While you're traveling the oil might soften the rust and make removal easier when you get back.  I have been told more than once by old timers (of which I now am one) that a rusty iron tsuba can be boiled a bit, wiped dry, and then put in the freezer.  The freezing causes water absorbed by the rust to expand and loosen the rust.  Anyone tried this?

Grey

[Bazza]

... The freezing causes water absorbed by the rust to expand and loosen the rust.  Anyone tried this?

Grey

I once tried a method in an old book which was to use a scalpel carefully to remove rust from the surface of an iron tsuba.  I found it less than satisfactory and wouldn't recommend it at all.  Quite possibly because as well as gently cleaning the surface I also used the scalpel point to literally clean out the pits of rust below the surface of the tsuba.  A wise, old American collector visiting Australia poured cold water on this technique and criticised it for leaving pockmarks in the surface - this is what I fear will happen with the freezing method as deeper rusted pits burst out of the body of the tsuba.  The wise American suggested using a piece of bone/ivory/whatever on the flat with some oil and carefully wear the crusted rust down level with the surface, all the while trying not to reach the base iron resulting in bright metal showing.  The same aspects also apply to nakago of swords.  I have seen a re-tempered blade where the heat literally exploded rust out of the pits in the tang leaving a pockmarked surface.  Luca has already learnt that it takes hours and hours of patient work to scarcely see a result, yet this is what is needed to undo decades or centuries of neglect.

 

Bestests,

BaZZa.

[Grey Doffin]

The absolute best for boning a rusty iron tsuba is fossilized ivory (mastodon or mammoth, can't remember which I have).

Grey

[dirk marshall]

i have cleaned a considerable amount of tsubas and am a firm beleiver in piano keys 

[zanilu]

Hello Everybody
 
Grey I have left the tsuba soak in wd40 for more than one week without seeing any appreciable effect on the rust unfortunately.
I will leave tomorrow so I have already applied some wax that I will remove when I get back, probably using isopropilic alcohol.
The I will resume with bone (someone knows where to find fossilized ivory?) and the fiber glass pen I have just ordered.

The boil+freezing will be  last ditch option.

 

Luca

[Curran]

Luca,

 

I do not know Switzerland's laws about Ivory.

    (1)  In the USA we often get ours from busted up old piano keys [thrift stores, etc].

    (2)  Knife makers at shows will sometimes sell ivory scraps from the remains of handles made.

    (3)  As a former diver here in Florida, you will sometimes be amazed what other divers have dredged up and store in their gear sheds. In addition to barrels of fossilized megladon teeth, mammoth teeth, bones, etc,- different types of fossilized ivory do come up. I am not close friends with any of the guys who live more underwater than above, but know they make a living selling their finds on eBay- if ebay permits the sale.

[peterd]

Luca

Be careful with the fibreglass pen,it can be very harsh.

 

peterd

[ROKUJURO]

Luca,

I am sure you don't need fossilized ivory! You can buy mammoth ivory from knifemaking supply shops, but I have found that in most case it is too brittle. If staghorn is too soft, cattle bones are quite hard if they are degreased and dried properly. In some difficult cases, soft metal tools (copper and brass) can help on iron TSUBA, but they may leave a metallic residue which has to be removed afterwards.  

Best of luck with your project! Let us know about your results in a few years! 

[zanilu]

"years"