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Question On Values Please?


CurtisR

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Hello all,

I recently experienced a dispute with a gentleman over the sale of his tsuba "collection" - he states he paid over $2500.00 for the group. I told him he'd overpaid by quite a lot...he then told me to market them for me, and that he didn't care how much, but just wanted them sold.

 

After several months of shopping them around, I've been able to sell all but one for a total of $550.00 and from having them in-hand, felt I'd done o.k. for him in the sales. I informed him today of the total value (one is still in-progress) they'd sold for, and he told me I'd "ripped him off".

I acted as his agent, with no stipulation as to a price on his part and of course liked him so wanted to get the best value I could.

 

I know there are many collectors here who know the markets far better than I, and just want opinions from anyone willing to give one on 1) the quality of the pieces and 2) what the YOU might consider paying for the collection. BTW, 2 if not 3 are Gendai as you will see, and one is a piece of a Gunto tsuba. His normal business is as a dealer in Oriental rugs ---- if I've made a mistake I'm happy to own it, but I'd just like a bit of "piece of mind" that I'd done o.k. (if in fact that's the case).

Thank you all, in advance.

 

Curtis R.

 

 

 

 

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Pete and Antii, thank you very much for the kudos - I NEVER try to 'rip off' anyone...I tried to sell them for a value that was fair, and that's it. I felt badly when he told me I'd essentially given them away but from the studies and examples I've followed here as people and true experts have posted opinions, I knew they were of - well let's say 'lesser' desirability' and did the best I could for a gentleman I had no ill will against.

 

It is a very good lesson for me to get these things in writing before agreeing to such a venture in the future. I'm an honest guy and felt terrible that I'd perhaps miss-judged (although from my studies I was pretty sure) and I thank you both for the help!! 

 

:beer: :beer: :beer:  to you both, and if anyone else has a thought - even to the contrary - please hit me with it :) :) .

 

Domo arigato and Kampai!!

 

Curtis R.

Lakewood, CO

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Hi Curtis

 

You were not being fair to yourself, when you took the task on!

$2500.00 was the paid claim, having seen the items, you must have realised that was a no,no.

What target figure did you have in mind on this recovery?

You must in any situation like this, have a sum that will be acceptable to the seller.

If in your mind it is unachievable, then walk.

You return to him with 1/5 of what he says he paid, it leaves you open to abuse.

In this case, he pulled the rug out from under you. ( an attempt to lighten the post)

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Curtis,

 

IMHO you oversold these!!  Eight tsuba at $550 = approx $70 each.  These are VERY expensive and VERY ugly paperweights.  I'm sorry to read that you are in an bind over this, but you are in no way responsible for another man's lack of knowledge or judgment of both artistic merit and monetary worth.  Without a signed paper agreement I doubt the original owner has a leg to stand on legally.  Any knowledgeable person would back you to the hilt (sorry!).  I've chipped in here because earlier this week I was asked to look over a number of "Japanese" swords, 13 in all, that the owner had paid A LOT of money for.  Dear Reader, you will be thrilled to hear that amongst this lot was a GENUINE, SAMURAI head cutting tanto, a kubikiri no less with a hawk's head point (and sharpened on the inside curve in case I haven't made it clear).  It was also embellished with gold plating on the mune side.  I've seen better straight razors!!  There wasn't a single piece in this group that anyone here would want, yet the owner had paid a considerable amount of money for them whilst posted overseas to the USA.  The postings here should more than support the help you have given to the unfortunate owner.

 

BaZZa.

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Gentlemen All (And Grey, have no worries - it's the thought that counts and always good to hear from you!!),

Thank you so much for your kind replies and yes, I should have walked away. He was an acquaintance I'd known for a couple of years...obviously not well enough! Denis, that bit of levity made my day!!

 

Yes, I felt I did o.k. and of course never miss-represented them to any buyer either. Some folks like this type of thing but I've learned (by lurking here lol) from the best...not my cup of tea. I've learned a number of things from this little "adventure" - perhaps that in itself is worth the price of the aggravations. I can not thank you all enough for the vindication and advice for "next time"!!!

I'm planning on being in Florida in 2016, and if any of you will be there I will gladly buy the :beer: :beer: :beer: !!

 

Oh by the way (opening my overcoat)...anyone wanna buy a tsuba? Only driven to church & back by a little old lady from Iowa :rotfl: .

 

Many, many thanks!!

 

Curtis R.

Lakewood, CO

USA

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Hi Curtis:

 

I agree with the other members of the forum regarding the value of the items you were asked to sell for your friend. All of the tsuba appear to be in fairly poor condition, and most serious collectors would pass on them. Unless these were priced very cheaply (dirt cheap) at a show, I think most of us would be hard-pressed to sell them for what you were able to sell them for. All appear to be simply "filler" tsubas for low end swords missing a tsuba.  

 

This topic raises a more important issue: What should one do to protect oneself when asked to sell an item for someone else, so as to avoid any "misunderstandings" or consignor's/owner's remorse after the item is sold, and any potential legal ramifications? Many of us have been asked by friends, or persons referred to us by others, to help sell items for them. It is not uncommon at sword shows, gunshows and on websites to hear or see someone indicating that an item offered for sale is being sold by the seller "on consignment." As one who has sold items on consignment for others in the past, and as an attorney, I try to make it a practice to put it in writing, signed by both parties, setting forth exactly what the consignor/owner will accept/receive at a minimum from the sale proceeds for each item sold to avoid any post-sale complaints/remorse, misunderstandings, ill-feelings, or sleepless nights. This is even more important when the fair and current market value of the item or items consigned are, say, worth more than $1,000. Additionally, the more inexperienced the person is who is asking you to sell an item for them, and the more experienced you are with regard to knowing or purporting to know the fair market value of the item(s), the more likely it is that you may be accused of mishandling the sale, or underselling the items, if a lawsuit ensues, and if you do not have something in writing setting forth what the parties agreed to before the items were sold. We have all heard stories of someone who knew virtually nothing about the fair market value of swords or sword fittings/collectibles, who consigned them to someone else to sell, and then after the items were sold claimed they were somehow ripped of by the person who sold the item for them. To avoid a number of problems after the sale, my preference and recommendation would be to get something in writing, setting forth and describing the item(s) being consigned/sold, a reasonable description (pictures would be helpful), and setting forth exactly how much the seller will receive from the sale proceeds for each item. 

 

When I first started collecting nihonto in my 20's (early 70's), I took around $10,000 worth of swords on consignment from a Los Angeles causal acquantance/collector. I was going to show them to a friend of mine in Northern California, and possibly receive one of th swords aout of the deal if it went forward. I had the items stored in a guncase in a closet. My house was burglarized by some neighborhood kids, and thank goodness they only took on eof my tantos, some money, and a new baseball glove(definitely, kids). Fortunately for me, they never looked in the closet in the very room where they found the other items, as the swords were in that closet. At the time, I had nothing in writing between myself and the L.A. owner of the consigned swords, describing the items, their individual values, etc., or what arrangements I had with regard to the swords. Had they been stolen, I would have arguably been faced with squaring up with the owner, and without having something in writing, it could have gotten very ugly and finacially expensive. Since that time, I have made it a practice to get something in writing. 

 

The writing memoralizing the consignment arrangement probably does not have to be prepared by a lawyer and all encompassing, but one would hope that it would at least include the name of the owner/seller of the items listed, the name of the person selling the items for the owner, a description of the item(s) being sold, an agreed upon estimated value of the items(s), the amount the owner/seller agrees to accept/receive for each item, and the date and signatures of both parties to the agreement. This simply protects both parties, and could help if an insurance claim must be made down the road relating to the items (items are stolen, lost in transit, damaged). Just a suggestion for future transactions.

 

As to this latest transaction, like all of the other forum members who commented, I think you worked miracles getting $550 for this grouping of tsubas. Good job.Thanks for the topic, Curtis.

 

Regards,

Bill E. Sheehan (Yoshimichi) 

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Curtis

 

Well taken and on the chin.

 

My reply to your post, was in some way putting salve on my own wounds. I took on the task of passing to sale, items of nihonto for a friends widow.

The problem was, the items concerned had been heavily over valued, whilst the gentleman was still with us.

I have a very good friend here on the board, who will vouch, that I had an almost impossible task of getting the expected prices.

 

When an 'all to auction' decision was made, it was then and only then, the true value of the collection was made clear to all.

Like you, I was pleased to be considered as someone who could help. Yes I sold a great deal at their worth, but always wondered, could my integrity have been brought to question? 

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Mr. Sheehan and Dennis -

I have very thick "chin-skin" :glee: !!

I can not thank you all enough for your wisdom...and I will follow it! Yes, it's a very different world from the other things I've taken on in the past (firearms mostly). What bugs me still is that I stood there with him (surrounded by Persian carpets he could not sell, BTW) and TOLD him they were poor quality and that they would not sell for high prices, if at all. Perhaps (no insult intended!!) those from the Mid-East don't speak the same 'language' we do here or as they do in Japan. He said "I don't care...just sell them all". THEN tells me "You were supposed to bring me an offer!"

I've completely cut off communication with him, as well as another acquaintance who wished to sell (as in "me: "Are you telling me that yes, yes this sword IS for sale?" him""Yes, it is for sale") a nice Meiji Gunto, yet somehow could not find time for me to measure it. In short, a total clown-show.

In my future I will deal only with those "in the know"...and in WRITING! I can not thank ALL of you who've responded enough for your wisdom --- my primary concern is MY reputation in this wonderful, intricate and honorable field as I get older.

I hear-by promise to use your wisdom well, and if there appears to be "ass-clownishness" (I made that up...spiffy, eh?) then I'm OUT!

 

Many, many thanks for letting my soul rest in all of this! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

Respectfully,

 

Curtis (Curt) Richter

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Just wanted to give an extra thank you the Mr. Sheehan after re-reading his wise words. I'm familiar with "leagal-ees" and your points ware dead-on and would have at least kept this gentleman from complaining or claiming that I was to "bring him an offer" before sale (which was not the case as I've said). I don't often sell things on consignment, but for the future I'll have a document describing he terms and other main points of possible dispute.

Fortunately I'm pretty well versed in the court process (yet made the mistake of "going on friendship") and informed him that he's more han welcome to sue in small-claims, and that I'd be countering for Trebble Damages :) .

 

This guy's a snake (and has probably used this tactic before), as is his 'compatriot' who - sadly - owns about 50 decent to VG Nihonto. After this little advenure (in which he sided with the snake-charmer :laughing:...get it? carpet? Snake? lol ), the owner of the swords can die with them and it will matter not a bit to me. I was within inches of offering a Naval Gunto for him (guy #2) (Meiji and nice), but he just couldn't manage to find time for me to pick it up, photograph it and measure it. Once again....should have had tthat document at the ready!!

 

I chalk it p to a good lesson learned, and am comfortably back in the arena with great folks like those here who have honor. I'm looking forward to meeting many of you (I hope) in Tampa early next year!!!

 

Best and warm regards,

 

Curtis R.

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