BIG Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Hi all, a nice PDF from P. Kuntz http://new.uniquejapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/21-Antique-Shinshinto-Japanese-Swords-For-Sale-From-Unique-Japan.pdf Best Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuuten Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 3 Out of 4 are on hold already. If you want first pick you should enlist to the mailing list.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG Posted June 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Yep, a Little treasure sharing, for us Shin shinto Fans. Best Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuuten Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I'm a fan! I was involved with the Hisayuki daisho and it doesn't disappoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mywei Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Anyone else think some of these blades may be a bit overpriced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Price is not relevant. If too high, they don't sell. Since they seem to have sold...I guess they buyers felt they were getting value for money. In many cases, you are paying for the expertise of your agent or dealer. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loco Al Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I’m not going to comment on the price of those swords, although I do think that it is a fair question for someone to ask. Matt (mywei) brought it up, and presumably he thought that he had good reason to do so. I understand that it kind of goes against the ethos of this forum to discuss prices listed on “dealers” websites. The moderators have made it clear before that this is generally verboten. Of course there is also the potential for much misinformation when people start to comment on (and debate prices), so that may also be a reason to discourage it. Thing is, if one were to go to a car forum for example: Members may be seen to freely discuss prices for their rides. With cars however, we are dealing with a known commodity. No so easy with collectibles like Japanese swords or other artworks. Most sword dealers will decline to comment on other dealers prices, unless of course you are offering the sword to them for purchase or consignment. So where do you go for advice on a sword’s price (or a particulars dealer’s prices in general) if you are not all that knowledgable? You certainly won’t find that information reliably on this board, unless the dealer in question is a scam artist or an eBay dealer. Dealers who promote their items (directly or indirectly) regularly on this board would seem to be immune to any criticism. I want to take issue with the four points that Brian made in his last post. Preposterous, all of them: 1. “Price is not relevant.” Not relevant to what? The beauty of Mr. Kuntz’s pdf advertisment? Beautiful photographs and lovely brochures may help to sell swords, but they are not necessarily relevant to price or the true value of a sword. Just because someone writes a 13 page essay extolling the virtues of one particular sword, does that make it greatly more valuable? 2. “If too high, they don’t sell.” That is utter nonsense, and I think you know it. It is the price bracket of the sword (to begin with) that determines whether it will be a quick sell, or not. Juyo swords are not easy to sell generally, because they tend to be in a price bracket that limits most from making a quick impulsive purchase. Not everyone is quite so knowledgable, and I am quite sure that there have been many thousands overspent by trusting buyers. Buyers who would rather trust the opinion of their favourite seller (dealer), rather than take the time to learn. “Oh, look. Mr. X has more pretty swords in his latest fancy brochure. Must acquire one!” “And that 15 page, so well researched essay, must confirm that it’s really, really something special!” As if every Joe, who has only bought a few $1000 - $3000 swords, should immediately (and instinctively) know that: Oh yeh, that $18,000 sword is overpriced by at least $5000! Come on, Brian. Who are you kidding? 3. “Since they seem to have sold…I guess that buyers felt they were getting value for money.” Stating the obvious, but did they truly get value for money (see counterpoint 2 above)? That is such a dumb, almost defensive statement, that I have to wonder what the motivation for it. 4. “in many cases, you are paying for the expertise of your agent of dealer.” And that makes it okay to overcharge for items? In the art world there is such a thing as a commission. That is expected. At some point though, asking prices may far exceed what should reasonably be expected to include fair recompense for the average art dealers commission. I realise that some dealers promote themselves more as “agents”, procuring only the best for their very special clients. Wait till these clients try to dispose of their overpriced swords later on. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussi Ekholm Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 In my opinion it's buyers responsibility to do the research. I know I might have overpaid on few items and that is entirely my own fault. If you are not certain about your decision you should not buy. That is why generally people in this forum people suggest getting into books and meetings before you buy things. You need to know what you are buying. If you don't feel you have enough knowledge on a certain item, why are you thinking about buying it? Well as this hobby is our passion any reason is as good as the other one. You sometimes make decisions by feelings. There are plenty of people with enough money to buy swords but for me it's more important why you buy that certain sword. I always recommend meeting people who share this same passion. I know more senior collectors who know much much more than I do, and if I would think about a very large purchase I would discuss it with many of them to get advice. For example I don't know much about Shin Shinto, so I would not be confident in buying a Shin Shinto. I got to kantei few good blades of this period in the last NBTHK meeting. Needless to say I didn't have enough knowledge to guess smiths, heck I'm happy that I kinda got some clue about the general direction of one blade of this period. If you are not confident in your decision don't buy. It never hurts to seek guidance from more experienced collectors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Alan, We get it! You are still filled with angst over your purchase from that high end dealer. I get it. No need to let it rule your life.I have read the story. I think you need to get over it. You didn't do badly, and no forum out there would have helped you decide to buy or not. You need to get help to get over what is clearly something you are obsessing about. Please don't make it my forum's problem. Pricing is irrelevant, because I choose to make it so. I choose not to make pricing the subject of discussions, just like MOST forums out there. Yes..if they are too high, they don't sell. That is the definition of art pricing. If someone thinks it is worth that, then that becomes the last recorded price of something in that category. It may go down on the next transaction, or it may go up. If a buyer is uneducated, then he sets that price too high. The next buyer corrects the market based on education and research. Sellers like Pablo sell to a captive US Serviceman marked in Japan, and I hear he does well. Those buyers are happy to pay those prices and feel they get what they paid for. We don't get to tell them they are wrong or right. That's not what this forum is for. We don't set pricing here and don't even know what the majority of swords sell for among high end dealers. We do comment on prices when a beginner is considering a purchase. We will often comment on a good deal and tell someone to avoid something if they are starting out. That is the limit of what we can be expected to assist as far as pricing goes. As I have said before, if you think this forum doesn't live up to your expectations, you are quite welcome to go to one of the others that maybe think differently. My advice is work through your angst over your past purchases first though. It is never easy spending big money, but I suspect you did ok. Brian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuuten Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I’m not going to comment on the price of those swords, although I do think that it is a fair question for someone to ask. Matt (mywei) brought it up. Alan So basically if that's what you planned on doing, you could've stopped here. Edit: also like I said, i was the client for the Hisayuki daisho, and i have no problems, infact i'm very happy and even happier I contact Pablo instead of another dealer. Only the greatest respect for him and UJ. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loco Al Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Alan, We get it! You are still filled with angst over your purchase from that high end dealer. I get it. No need to let it rule your life. I have read the story. I think you need to get over it. You didn't do badly, and no forum out there would have helped you decide to buy or not. You need to get help to get over what is clearly something you are obsessing about. Please don't make it my forum's problem. Pricing is irrelevant, because I choose to make it so. I choose not to make pricing the subject of discussions, just like MOST forums out there. Yes..if they are too high, they don't sell. That is the definition of art pricing. If someone thinks it is worth that, then that becomes the last recorded price of something in that category. It may go down on the next transaction, or it may go up. If a buyer is uneducated, then he sets that price too high. The next buyer corrects the market based on education and research. Sellers like Pablo sell to a captive US Serviceman marked in Japan, and I hear he does well. Those buyers are happy to pay those prices and feel they get what they paid for. We don't get to tell them they are wrong or right. That's not what this forum is for. We don't set pricing here and don't even know what the majority of swords sell for among high end dealers. We do comment on prices when a beginner is considering a purchase. We will often comment on a good deal and tell someone to avoid something if they are starting out. That is the limit of what we can be expected to assist as far as pricing goes. As I have said before, if you think this forum doesn't live up to your expectations, you are quite welcome to go to one of the others that maybe think differently. My advice is work through your angst over your past purchases first though. It is never easy spending big money, but I suspect you did ok. Brian How do you know (suspect) that I did ok? You may try to paint me as some sort of angst ridden crazy dissident (who may be worried that he got burned a bit), but you kind of sidestepped some of the issues I had with your brief reply to mywei. Particularly, when you said: In many cases, you are paying for the expertise of your agent or dealer. What if your dealer isn't really as "expert" as he advertises? How much extra should you be expected to pay then? There is a certain lack of transparency in this business, and it is primed for those who would wish to misrepresent and profit disreputably (such as on eBay). Then, there are those items that are over-embellished by relatively knowledge dealers. Don't try to kid me that this does not occur. Regarding the U.S. servicemen, you said: Those buyers are happy to pay those prices and they feel they got what what they paid for. How can you confidently say that? Either you put your foot in it again, or you are privy to information directly provided by Pablo. Or, perhaps, you are just making this up. "We don't get to tell them they are wrong or right. That is not what this forum is for." So, what is it for? To share misinformation, perhaps? You are prepared to tell someone if they are making a mistake when starting out (only if they are are buying from someone not advertising on this site, I suspect). You will often comment on a good deal, but not a bad deal? How do you say "spin job". What is "big money" for swords? Would $120,000 over three years be big enough for you. One sword is gone. Only two left (both Juyo). It was the nasty emails that really got to me, Brian, not necessarily the overpricing. Angst, my sore behind. I'm not referring to Pablo, by the way. None of my swords came from him. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Alan, Again, don't take your frustrations out on my forum. Deal with your dealer issues yourself. You say "You may try to paint me as some sort of angst ridden crazy dissident" and yet you yourself call yourself Crazy Al. It's not for me to prove that a dealer's customers are happy with their deals....it is for you to prove that they aren't. And since the internet is not filled with complaints from these guys, but quite a few compliments....you may battle to find that. I don't know Pablo...I personally find the prices high for my own budget. But recognise the fact that he has hundreds of clients who don't. And this goes for all other dealers. This forum doesn't shy away from legitimate dealer criticism. It is obvious, based on the number of dealers out there that don't participate and the comments I get. No-one sponsors the forum, and no-one pays for good publicity. The dealer in question (not Pablo) isn't even posting currently after a disagreement over rules, moderating and procedures. So much for special treatment. I resent your comment about misinformation and "spin job" and the more i think about it, the more I realize that I really don't have to put up with it. Free forum, free participation..means I can do what i consider best for it. In this case, take a break for a few weeks compliments of myself. Brian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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