Earliest Date On A Kogarasu Maru Blade?

[jct3602]

Have a kogarasu maru blade with most of the fittings (tortoiseshell grip, D-guard from Suya, gold washed seppa and habaki, gold washed wire on the tortoiseshell, but missing the pommel cap). No armory number, signed Sho-Uju Kanemasa and dated Meiji 23 (October I think). Had a window opened on it and it has a real temper line, suguha with some very small midare, Does anyone have any info on the earliest date that a kogerasumaru blade would have?

 

 

Thanks in advance,

 

john

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

[Johnny Barracuda]

Hello, any pictures? That would be helpful.

[lonely panet]

 

my dear General

 

regards

[jct3602]

Hamfish, I understand the desire for pictures; however, note the topic.  Question was what is the earliest date that various posters have seen on this style blade?  

 

Am still dealing with getting pictures off a computer that blew up; looking around for some micro-sd cards that may have the pictures of the mei.  Will be happy to post them at that point, but still looking for data on the early period of Murata-to; various sources have some conflicting opinions. 

[jct3602]

Hi all; this is from a very old source - a dvd that made when I first acquired this.  Will send more in bits - most of the pictures are around 4 MB 

 

thanks,

 

John

[jct3602]

A picture of the guard and surrounding furniture. 

 

John

[Lance]

The famous Kogarasu Maru is supposed to date back to Nara-Heian period, (700-1100 AD)   From what I've read over the years, any attempt  at a more precise date was usually   mid 900 ADl.  I'd assume it wasn't the first sword ever made in this shape,( I think there are others around the same age) Maybe a rough estimate either 50 years before or after 900 would be reasonable?

 

Regards,

Lance.  

[jct3602]

A view of the tip -

 

 

 

John

[jct3602]

Thanks Lance; I was looking for any info on the dates when the kyugunto in the Kogarasumaru style were first introduced.  The prototype for the other style officers blade was made by Murata for a member of the Imperial family in late 1891, I believe.   I am curious as to where my blade falls in the development time line.  Will have pictures sometime of the opened area of the hamon when I get it back.  Adding one more picture.

 

 

Thank you all for your patience (I hate computers)

 

john

 

[Lance]

My mistake,, I believe these started beingt made in the late 1870's-1880's when Japan was westernizing their military, so the first use of this type of sword  wouldn't pre-date your sword by much,  maybe 10-15 years..

 

Regards,

Lance.  

[jct3602]

Lance, supposedly the prototype of this style was around 1890; the other style officer's blade was first forged in 1891 I believe for an imperial prince.

 

thanks for you interest

 

john

[jct3602]

_{Some additional photos of the mei, pt 1.}

 

_john

[jct3602]

Additional mei photos, pt 2 (upside down)

 

john

[Johnny Barracuda]

A picture of the guard and surrounding furniture. 

 

John

John, it seems that the guard and backstrap were re-plated, since they appear in a far better shape of plating than the scabbard.

 

As for early kyu gunto, before the Meiji 8 authorisation in 1875, i.e. the Type 8 swords, most swords were imported. Actually, a lot of the Type 8 series were also imported, frequently from Germany and often made by Clemen & Jung, a weapon factory from Solingen that still operates to this day.

 

From the Meiji 19 (1886) authorisation, all swords were made in Japan. Type 8 and Type 19 swords for generals are similar, and a Murata-to would date from the beginning of the 1890's.

 

Ohmura-san has an interesting page on the kind of sword you own: http://ohmura-study.net/911.html

 

Hope this helps.

[Mark]

page 181 of John Sloughs Oshigata book has a blade that shape made by Murata dated 1888

[jct3602]

Johnny Barracuda, thank you.  I have read Ohmura-san's articles with great interest.  One interesting dodge is to take the http://Ohmura-study.net/ and switch the numbers that follow and hit enter; I find myself on pages I was not able to access asking questions on google.  If you have an easier way of accessing all of the pages in Ohmura-study and/or a way to contact Ohmura himself, I would appreciate it.  I have looked up where he worked, but an email to there just bounced.

 

Thanks a lot; any more ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[jct3602]

Mark, where do you find John Slough's Oshigata book? Would be very interested in seeing that particular Oshigata.  The information that Ohmura-study/net gives does not indicate anything forged that early, but Murata was working with the best smith's of his time in his effort to produce appropriate officer's blade styles during that period, so it is certainly very reasonable to have a date that early. 

 

Great info, thanks

 

John

[Stephen]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-Samurai-Sword-Blades-Oshigata-Book-Imperial-Japan-Military-/351371805876?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51cf6444b4

[jct3602]

Thanks Stephen for the info.  I am probably going to be a cheapskate and pay the $10 or so for a Xerox of the page I need from the Library of Congress.  If that fails, this source is probably the most convenient of the various I have seen.  Primarily a collector of Koto; however,  this piece looked interesting and the price was not bad, so even not being a militaria collector I picked it up.

 

Once again, thanks

 

john

[Stephen]

John 

 page 181 will be scanned and PM me your email and ill do it for free

[jct3602]

Stephen, thank you.  my email is jct3602@gmail.com.

 

yours,

 

John

[cisco-san]

[jct3602]

My thanks, Stephen and Cisco!  The oshigata in Slough's book are very clear; obviously the seminal piece for the kogarasumaru style general's sword.  Also the signature is different - the piece in Slough is signed Murata Tsuneyoshi; mine is signed Sho-Uju Kanemasa.  Still an early piece with no armory production number and tempered, but almost 2 years younger than the prototype.  Next question was the type of steel; Ohmura says Solingen steel was used in some of the early trials as was a mixture of Swedish and Japanese steel - this is one I feel will go unanswered unless my friend Michael Bell the swordsmith can give me a strong opinion. 

 

Once again, thank you all

 

john

[Stephen]

recheck page 180 i sent you...far left ShoJu Kanemasa AKA Tsuneyoshi...Mid to high grade Gendailto 

 

A. Shoju (small arms)

[jct3602]

Stephen, do you know what the armory numbering indicated, by any chance?  looking at the armory blade in the kogarasu-maru style on page 180, it says #5-169.  Now it is hard to believe at that point there were 169 generals in the Japanese army, much less 169 in the 5th series produced, so that numbering must mean something else.  Does someone out there know?  Also, from a personal point of interest, is there any significance to the lack of an armory number on the blade I have?

 

john