Jump to content

Nbthk Papering Of Higo Tsuba


Curran

Recommended Posts

Curran, perhaps you don't know that when you submit and PASS an item for Juyo shinsa, the Tokubetsu Hozon or (old way prior to a few years ago) Hozon certificate is not returned. The Hikozo (not Hirata) is now in for Tokubetsu Juyo this year. The only ones that I remember that didn't pass, are maybe the 2 Kanshiro. So when I go to Japan next month, I will ask my friend on your behalf for evidence of Hozon during those years, forgive me if I am 1 year off! I see so many items, I cannot remember when they were papered.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ooops, Curran, to be clear as it seems I must be here, "not pass" for the Kanshiro means to my knowledge it did not pass Juyo or wasn't submitted yet. I haven't watched the NMB for a while as I am busy studying or teaching. People, please remember that just because a piece only papers to "Higo" doesn't mean it is a bad piece, but there is a reason for that particular attribution. For example how many out there can actually make an educated call on a Higo tsuba made by Takatada? The people that I learn from in Japan about Higo are some of the best, and I find that I have much to learn. The true way to learn is by having the items in hand, and someone of quality to show you the "WHY". At the next show, I would like to see in hand some of these "Higo" only attributed 2014 pieces, so please bring them and show me. Curran if you will attend, I would be happy to have this conversation with you at that time. I am not defending the NBTHK, but I am trying to show that there is a possible difference in items of Higo.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike,

 

Show us the papers please. Or the pass slips.

Discussion was largely on the Hozon level, from shinsa after Jan 2014. Tokubetsu Hozon is good too.

Just looking for evidence, not hearsay.

 

I'd like to be proven wrong. Especially on that kinko Kanshiro.

As of late October 2015 after this thread was very old, we have started to see a 'den' attributions or two.

Here is one:     http://www.kusanaginosya.com/SHOP/321.html

Looking for specific post Jan 2014 Hozon or TH to Kanshiro, Hikozo, or specific Hayashi artists.

Even a straight Tohachi would be nice. Not a 'den' Tohachi.

 

Appreciate your help.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Curran,Well, you can check the Juyo zufu for 2015 for those that passed the 2014 shinsa, and I know the others passed last year and were on display at the NBTHK because I saw them, And like I stated earlier, I'll ask if there is the Hozon or Tokuho for the 2 that may not have passed Juyo or that were not submitted. But, my question for you is , you are asking me for this, what about you posting the papers of all the examples that you have talked about? I would like to see what the evidence of what this discussion is about. That's all I can do until I go to Japan, and I don't have that much free time to spend on this post - so someone let me know when Curran posts examples of all the items he has been talking about, so we can se the examples of what was called "Higo"

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So no post Jan 2014 Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon papers or tags on any of the seven you showed then?

 

Just looking for positive proof here.

One or two would help.

 

You collect yourself. Share one of the items you submitted from your own collection that received a Kanshiro, Hirata (Hikozo if you need), or one of the Hayashi masters in a 2014 or 2015 shinsa.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Curran, I thought i made it very clear - When you pass Juyo for sword or fitting, you have to turn in the Tokubetsu Hozon or Hozn paper. The kanshiro may have a paper, and I will check when I return to Japan. What i think is needed more at the moment is the PROOF of the items in question from you. I did not see ANY  examples of items with the "Higo" designation posted from you unless I missed them that you wrote about. Out of 33  reported by you papers, how many have you posted to show the item and the attribution? So I say , let start with you as you were the one that posted this originally. Maybe these items are subpar, maybe not. But without evidence, none of us can tell. Only your words have been posted and that is not enough as you did not issue the certificates or see all of the items in hand. Lets see your proof of data for educational purposes, other wise it is only hearsay, and we cannot learn anything except your confusion. I wait for your evidence of the 33 pieces for study on this post. A post of the papers should suffice. I for one would like to see for study myself.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For now I have only this and have no other time for now, but this is 2 more , plus the tsuba I posted than what I have seen from you besides words. You are correct, "evidence' is important, not just words. Please check 2015 juyo passed tosogu, and then you can see which items of higo passed at that time that I had posted. I guess you can ask the NBTHK for a copy of the Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon. We do not keep the tags or cards because there are way too many to keep.By the way,do you know how hard it is to get a Musashi designation these days?post-1512-0-91441300-1458404492_thumb.jpgpost-1512-0-02796800-1458404510_thumb.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking for positive proofs here.

Otherwise, not interested.

 

So no post Jan 2014 Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon papers or tags on any of the seven you showed then?

 

Just looking for positive proof here.

One or two would help.

 

You collect yourself. Share one of the items you submitted from your own collection that received a Kanshiro, Hirata (Hikozo if you need), or one of the Hayashi masters in a 2014 or 2015 shinsa.

 

Since this thread started 1 year ago, we did start to see a few Nishigaki attributions.

You also evidenced one of the 'den' attributions we started to see in 2015.

 

Still, no post 2014 Hozon or TH papers to Kanshiro, Hirata (Hikozo or otherwise), or an unqualified attribution to one of the Hayashi masters.

 

They should exist, but still looking for them.

Perhaps we will see some issued in 2016.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry to be so late on this topic, but I was just made aware of this string. For Curran, here is some evidence for you. People always seem to decide things without all the facts. The following pieces that I will post all past Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon in the year questioned. Some also passed Juyo that same year and last year as well. They are obviously Higo of quality, and I posted partial pics so that everyone can understand the quality level needed for such calls.

1- Nishigaki Kanshiro

2-Nishigaki Kanshiro

3- Hayashi Shigemitsu

4-Hirata Hikozo

5-Kamiyoshi Rakuju (or Fukunobu) I forgot.

6-Rakuju

7-Hayashi Matashichi.

I hope this is helpful for the collectors. I have nothing to do with shinsa, but yes, you can ask the NBTHK judges if you travel to Japan if you are a member for an explanation of a certificate. I have not seen the items that have been talked about in prior parts of this thread, but I must say that they should be seen in hand if any reliable ideas are to be given. I am only posting these items so one can see that high level attributions were given the year in question 2013,2014,2015. Back to work, and forgive me if I do not pay further attention to this thread. I have contributed something of value I believe.

Mike

attachicon.gif1.jpgattachicon.gif2.jpgattachicon.gif3.jpgattachicon.gif4.jpgattachicon.gif5.jpgattachicon.gif6.jpgattachicon.gif7.jpg

 

Hi Curran and Mike;

 

Please don't view this topic as some type of competition or personal battle between you two.  I consider you both friends and teachers on the finer points of Higo tosogu.  This topic thread is a great opportunity to promote the understanding and appreciation of Higo tosogu to the border Japanese sword collecting online community.  Looking at Mike post on Thursday Higo tsuba #5 I think it is the work of Kamiyoshi Rakuju based upon how the nakago-ana is finished with chisel marks.  They are almost identical to the next tsuba #6 signed Rakuju in gold inlay.  

 

Historical important Higo tosogu and good examples are still being discovered nowadays.  As a personal example just yesterday I found a good all iron Higo fuchi-gashira set at a local antiques show that came off of a sword in bad shape that had a almost completely destroyed handle except the this Higo fuchi-gashira set.  I will take photos and post up on my website in about a month so stay tuned to my website. :)          

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can we keep on topic please. This is specifically about the papering of certain Higo tsuba, and I allow it because it seems that when there are 2 differing points of debate, we seem to learn the most. So I hope Curran and Mike will see this as an opportunity to teach, and not a personal debate.
Keep it civil guys, and we will all enjoy it, and no-one will think any less of anyone. We appreciate the posting and sharing of info and everyone gets their fair say.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Topic- Curran again I ask you to post evidence of the "Higo" only attributions, I have posted 2 examples for everyone to see. Where is your proof of 33? (Haven't seen even one yet)Then everyone can see and compare to understand why this attribution was given, otherwise all your words are empty, and just hearsay. I  don't doubt that there were many "Higo" only attributions, but lets see what they are to discuss and learn. And you do not understand again what I wrote about waiting to go to Japan to see about the Kanshiro papers? If not, I cannot help you any more. I think my time will be better spent elsewhere.

For everyone else, top level items such as real Hikozo are not that common, so this attribution is not so easily given out. The last time I personally had a Hikozo attribution was about 3-5 years ago (I can produce the paper for this tsuba), And if someone was a serious true student of Higo tsuba, they would have recognized the tsuba that I had posted pics of on this post as being in the Higo Kinko Taikan, and belonging to the Hosokawa family. My friend bought all of one branch families (Hosokawa) collection. There is records of what they are and proven provenance. So use them to compare against the "Higo" only attributions, since we cannot see what they are. Need I say more? I cannot without seeing pics of those tsuba papers in question.

Brian if I am out of line, feel free to let me know, and remove all of my posts.

On a different note: beware of papers that say "Hirata Hikozo" this designation is false - the NBTHK never gives this attribution as far as I know. It is either "Hirata" or Hikozo". If you see Hirata Hikozo, someone added the Hikozo part on the paper underneath. This is not the NBTHK's doing, but a person who is cheating the system.

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as the NBTHK goes, Curran if you have a complaint or doubt, I can put you in front of Hagihara sensei if you will meet me in Japan. Just have your evidence ready if we do this and I'm sure he can answer all of your questions, just ask Michael C as he attended out toso study group in Japan that was held by Hagihara sensei. Any NBTHK member if they attend our study meets in Nov can ask the sensei a question if done politely of course. To the rest of the NMB, my apology's for the intrusion and remarks, and will try to help when I can.

Mike Yamasaki

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No Mike, I will not be posting image of tsuba with post 2014 Higo papers. You are welcome to do so and expound.

 

If you can provide positive proof, please do so.

It is much more to the point.

 

Or we can wait for your return from Japan.

 

Keep it simple and on point. As of the 2016 evolution, we see a few more school papers and some den papers.

I asked for any positive proof of post Jan 2014 shinsa papers of Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon to Kanshiro, Hirata (or Hikozo), or specific Hayashi smith attributions.

 

I'm still getting 0, 0, 0 and 0.

 

That shouldn't be. I welcome evidence to the contrary, from anybody on NMB or off.

You have not provided any examples yet, but are very well suited to do so. I didn't want to point out before that neither of the two posted were as I asked.

I'm not saying the don't exist. They really really really should.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Curran, then you have no proof and this whole post is worthless without ANY proof from you. It is only words. Explain why we have to post , but not you? where's the proof in that? Where's the education? No evidence leads no where.This discussion is worthless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone perhaps tried contacting the NBTHK and asking if they have been very conservative the past few years in giving calls to these smiths?

Isn't it the job of branches like the US one,  to pass on questions and queries like this? Perhaps they have indeed been conservative Mike. Isn't that a possibility?

Maybe an inquiry to one of the larger dealers in Japan might also prove fruitful?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Mike..... positive proof. Positive proof...... to use something more well known:

 

We know there are White swans. Lots of them   ----(Hozon to Higo).

Let us say there are no Black swans             ---(Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon post Jan 2014 to Kanshiro, Hirata (or Hikozo), or specific Hayashi smith attributions? 

 

Oh, look- there are black swans in Australia. Well that puts a hole in that theory.

Are there any more? Yes....

 

Same sort of thing here. Looking for a "black swan", even though I already believe they exist since they did pre-Jan 2014.

Still waiting on the post Jan 2014 Kanshiro, Hirata (or Hikozo), or specific Hayashi smith attributions.

As Brian touched.... you are welcome to scour the many dealer sites in Japan for an example. That is part of what I had been doing, and where many of that original "Higo" count came.

 

Why do you need to post proof?

You really don't, and you haven't.

Nor will I chase down your wild geese digressions.

 

I'm looking for a black swan or two, not wild geese.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is beginning to sound like the Republican Presidential Debates...

 

Yeah, not enjoying it either.

Trying to keep it light and above the belt, since it is an old thread and things have gotten a smidge better with the NBTHK.

I expect Brian to clamp down on us at some point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not a tsuba guy so my help will be very limited. You could also try asking the question from both AB and EB of NBTHK. I know there are guys with great tsuba knowledge in our EB. Unfortunately I have never been in the US and I haven't met US members but I know there is also great tsuba knowledge there.

 

I agree what was mentioned earlier that seeing various examples and get bit background info and explanations about them would be very fruitful to us newbies. Even though it's not as good as hands on teaching I think a lot can be learned from online conversations too.

 

I tried to track down some Higo tsuba for you from 2014 and 2015 but I didn't exactly find too many of them listed at dealer sites. So I didn't found too many attributions even to plain Higo on this timeframe. I tend to approach it with a collector view as that is only last few years. I understand that dealers will flip things but I think many collectors will not want to sell the item almost directly after getting papers for it. You can find lots of attributions for various Higo schools as well as plain Higo attributions pre 2014. Maybe there very well might be tighter criteria for attributing mumei pieces directly to certain schools in the NBTHK after 2013 I don't personally know this. However I think it's more probable for "unwanted" attributions to end up for sale than the "wanted" ones.

 

Also as I don't know a lot about tsuba I think attributing mumei pieces directly to someone will take immense skill and the work has to be quite stereotypic. Of course it's the same as with swords. I fully understand the "basic" attribution to for example in this case Higo. It's a lot safer to give more broader attribution than very specific one. Of course it would be great to get the most accurate attribution possible but I think sometimes it will be very difficult.

 

Maybe the NBTHK is not currently the best organization for identifying Higo tsuba? If that is the case maybe getting opinions by those in Japan who focus their studies on Higo tsuba would be the correct decision, I think Chris said this already earlier in the thread. Of course the opinion of high level Higo collector might not have the same general commercial value that NBTHK papers tend to have among collectors but I believe for high level Higo collectors the opinion of an expert specialized in Higo tsuba might be much more valuable.

 

Here is one for your list of post 2013 even though it's a den attribution. 伝楽寿 I had to check and his den is to my understanding of Kamiyoshi school. It's fun trying to look up things as it's a learning experience. :)

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20150218034725/http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/b00142.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well it's one of three things really. Either:

 

1) they aren't papering to these smiths in which case Curran needs to post examples that are blatantly Kanshiro etc as evidence of this.

 

2) They are but Curran can't find examples in which case Mike or someone else should show examples and papers.

 

Or 3) It was just a slow couple of years where no Tsuba by any of these artists or very few at least were submitted which can happen. They can't paper things that aren't submitted after all.

 

You're all looking for negative evidence to disprove your theories when instead you need to provide evidence and until that happens it's just speculation and hearsay.

 

I would liken it to a Republican debate except if that were the case then everyone would be denying Higo actually existed and demanding we bomb the NBTHK.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

​Or Hillary will stand up and lie to everyone and say NOTHING ever has got papered and yet she will THEN say rich people have Higo tsuba and then promise to take all your nice tsuba and give them to everyone else because it is not fair that you have worked and studied and got a really good tsuba..... when a new person has crap tsuba!! AND no one should be with out free tsuba that you never worked for.

 

Fred 

 

    

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe the NBTHK is not currently the best organization for identifying Higo tsuba? If that is the case maybe getting opinions by those in Japan who focus their studies on Higo tsuba would be the correct decision, I think Chris said this already earlier in the thread. Of course the opinion of high level Higo collector might not have the same general commercial value that NBTHK papers tend to have among collectors but I believe for high level Higo collectors the opinion of an expert specialized in Higo tsuba might be much more valuable.

 

Here is one for your list of post 2013 even though it's a den attribution. 伝楽寿 I had to check and his den is to my understanding of Kamiyoshi school. It's fun trying to look up things as it's a learning experience. :)

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20150218034725/http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/b00142.html

 

Jussi,

 

Though it is a modified 'den' attribution, that is the first artist specific one I have seen from 2014.

Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Curran, why do you keep asking me for proof, when you have show none at all? All you have done is write words, but not a single example. So how can we tell if the call is conservative or not? This is in answer to your question Brian, how can we know what is exactly being discussed or even if it is true without added evidence. For me. hearsay is not enough in this case is my point. I know of several pieces that have passed in either 2013-2014 and 2015 as one of the three discussed - Hikozo, Kanshiro and Matashichi. I do not need proof as I have held these in my hand and saw several of them pass Juyo in 2014 and 2015. For me I do not need evidence, I know the proof  lies at the NBTHK. To hear the records Curran should call himself if he does not believe. I can put him in touch with someone there. I just do not have the time for hearsay, there is nothing to learn. I do know that many tsuba do get the "Higo" only attribution as there are more of those type than the examples done by the masters.

To see even 10 of the so called 33 examples and have them discussed would be worthwhile for education. But to question the NBTHK without accurate information is wrong in my opinion. Do we know how many tsuba post 2014 were passed of any/all Higo schools? I sure don't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finally Mike. Thank you.

If I read it correctly, a fuchi-kashira to Kanshiro (Hozon) in late 2015.

 

That is the black swan. The only one I have seen in two years.

Glad it exists, and hope more follow.

 

Someday I hope to see them paper a tsuba to Kanshiro again.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Curran, that's all I found for now with a quick search. I think you have no idea of how many pieces we shinsa every year. you can only think of your own items. I wondered about a few things after reading this post very carefully. First I wonder if you understand the criteria for judgement of the NBTHK. Second, I am wondering why you flatly refuse to post examples of this "Higo" only designation even though it would be beneficial to this post. Is it because your own items that you believed to be a "Kanshiro" or "Hikozo" or "Matashichi" only papered to "Higo".  If that is the case, then you should go to Japan if you will not post examples for discussion and speak directly with the piece in hand to someone like Hagihara Sensei, Kobayashi Sensei or Iiyama Sensei or anyone else on the team. then maybe you can have a true sense of what Higo is and can be. Similar isn't always the same. That's the difference between an amateur and a professional

Personally, I submit many items for my own education, then if I have a question, I ask them in Japan.This is part of my education. Being closed minded doesn't help, as well as disappointment. Through the years I have started to understand , and it has helped my submissions for Juyo blades and fittings very much. Books are necessary, but not enough. Proper guidance teaches me quite a bit, if I may ask, who teaches you?

Just for the record, if you hold Sasano Sensei as a valid authority, then you should speak with Hagihara Sensei as he was one of Sasano's best students and is well versed in Higo and Iron.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as this "Black Swan" thing, I think you do not see enough pieces to make an accurate judgment, you have to know who to see in Japan and have them show you what they have (even in their own collections). The remark about if the NBTHK will ever paper a tsuba to Kanshiro again is an unfair one, as you have not done enough research or not even contacted the NBTHK to make an accurate statement. If you feel this way, then submit a tsuba that IS a Kanshiro by classic standards and top condition, not a maybe one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...