Nbthk Papering Of Higo Tsuba

[Curran]

Following on recent discussion with a Higo tsuba collector and a dealer in Japan-

 

Since about this time last year (March 2014)  has anyone had any tsuba NBTHK paper Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon specifically to:     Hayashi, Nishigaki, Hirata, or even Kamiyoshi ?

 

(1)  If so from a February 2014 or later NBTHK shinsa, could you please provide a scan of the papers including the date?

 

 

I appreciate any help in this matter.

[Pete Klein]

OR -- How about a mumei Goto piece with an NBTHK (same time frame) paper to a specific generation?

[John A Stuart]

...or hens teeth. John

[Curran]

Pete-  you are joking with me (?), as I'm the one who had that mumei kozuka come back TH to Tokujo last summer.

I confess that was a bit of a start, as it had previous papers to waki-goto that I thought were 'not great'. I just expected papers to 'Goto' and put it through TH because "what the hell!" since the design had special significance to me.

The results I had from that shinsa were very odd. One of the dealers I know in Japan claimed they failed everything he put in that shinsa. You'd think they had shot his favorite puppy.

 

We were discussing about 12 or 13 papers on a variety of Higo items from published shodai works to a rather well known Kamiyoshi work. In there was a tsuba we all agreed was nidai Hayashi, including opinion of two dealers in Japan.

I enjoy collecting Higo, but the other two people in the discussion are much more advanced than me.

All Higo items have come back 'Higo'. There *might* have been one 'Jingo', but haven't seen the paper and date yet to see if if was actually from a late 2013 shinsa.

 

As of 2013, we were still getting school attributions and even generation attributions on mumei pieces.

Noting the price drop in the TH costs, one theory is that we need 'pay up' for educated opinion now, vs the Captain Obvious 'Higo' at the Hozon level.

Personally I doubt that idea, but it is to be tested soon by someone else. Hopefully they will share the results in 4 months or so, but that is theirs to decide.

[Brian]

Those are some disturbing theories

It would be very counterproductive for them to start putting forward less information instead of the opposite as education increases. Hope we can have further input from the members.

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

Actually, Curran, I had forgotten about that piece but I hadn't 'processed' the timing of the paper anyway.  I do remember you mentioning it now that you reminded me.

 

If you look down the listings of tsuba here:  http://www.touken-sakata.com/  you will see several examples of tsuba from the Mitsuru Ito Higo books available.  Only a couple have papers.

 

Now then this begs the question, 'Did they not bother to get papers due to the publications or did they and the papers come back outside the published attributions'?  An attribution in these cases to 'Higo' would be very poor form, at least in my play book.  Personally, I'm tired of getting 'Goto'.  Wow, I think I sort'a figured that out all by myself, guys!  

[Brian]

I would think that the idea of submitting both Higo and Goto works would be to get a more specific attribution. If they cannot do that by submitting for hozon, then why should they be able to do it when submitting for TH? And if that is the case, then it seems to me far too much like a money grabbing stunt and is very poor form. Or are they saying that their hozon panel is not as educated as their TH one? Hmm...

 

Brian

[Curran]

Privately we covered the topic of Ito-san. His opinion was asked on a few of the tsuba. I have only significantly corresponded with him once, and was impressed by his insight into a non Higo tsuba. Supposedly Ito-san disagreed with the NBTHK on a regular basis. It goes both ways. One of the tsuba he regards as 5th gen, the NBTHK gave to 3rd gen a few years ago. After studying works of both 3rd and 5th, I felt Ito-san opinion was the smarter call. Another where Ito-san said 'shodai Kanshiro', but NBTHK just went 'Nishigaki'. I could never make up my mind on that one.

 

That was years ago. As you know, quite a number of the tsuba from Ito-san's books have hit the market.

As Pete pointed out.... no, they aren't papered. After years of them coming to market with papers, ...

....seems a wave of them have come to market without papers. Could be just one person selling out his collection without papers, or could be they've been to shinsa and the results were 'Higo' or otherwise unsatisfactory for the prices listed.

 

Rather than what Brian wrote, I chose to wonder if it is more of a staffing issue or something else with retirements?

l am looking for something to help eliminate interpretations. Looking for 2014 proof they are still Hozon attributing to Higo schools.

Ie. 2014 shinsa Hozon to Hayashi, Hirata, Nishigaki, or even Kamiyoshi.

 

Outside of Higo, there have been a few odd Hozon calls in 2014- but I thought the problem mostly limited to Higo until Pete mentioned Goto.

Pete is much more knowledgeable about Goto than I am.

 

 

Very difficult topic. I felt the NBTHK opinion was nigh infallable unt

[Pete Klein]

"Very difficult topic. I felt the NBTHK opinion was nigh infallable unt"...

 

NBTHK Ninja got him.  ROFLMAO!!!

[cabowen]

It bears keeping in mind that they can't know everything about everything. Each shinsa team has its strengths and weaknesses depending on the members. Members change and with those changes areas of expertise change. When you focus down on specific artists, often times the best authorities are people who have made a life long study of that particular area. You won't often find these people on the shinsa team usually because in many cases they are too specialized. A good shinsa team is usually composed of people with breadth of knowledge, not always depth in a narrow specialty.

[Pete Klein]

Agreed.  I have to wonder if some of this is internal questioning as to the veracity of previously held 'knowledge"?  Could it be that there is a redirection to a scientific, more methodological point of view?  I've often wondered about the rationales behind some attributions.  But then again, who am I to question?  (lol)

[Curran]

Chris, with regards to Higo- that might be true of a particularly *junior* team at the Hozon level to not able to identify individual generations, but to not be able to tell Nishigaki tsuba from a Jingo is particularly unforgivable. While sometimes it can be difficult with a particular Higo tsuba to decide whether it belongs in one school or another- this DOES NOT MEAN you absolutely give up and ignore significant amounts study to just call everything "Higo".

 

What next? Do we get to the point where we pay the NBTHK to give us an opinion as to whether something or not is a Tsuba? It is a tsuba, that will be $250 please....

It is one thing to take a step back from being able give generation attributions at the Hozon level, it is another to just give up and go 'Higo' on everything.

________________________________________________________________________

Pete,

     I'm sure the NBTHK ninjas will be here tomorrow, jumping out of the mangroves and startling the pelicans to decapitate all of us 2 legged here and the dog out of sheer spite.... maybe they will give me time for one last cigar.

 

It was options expiration work that got me today, but I did start then go looking for any more examples since dealers often the papers. Sure enough, fresh on a dealer's site was a very nice tsuba that looks to me to be a classic example of 3rd gen Hayashi's work. Price is too good to be true, especially for the particular dealer. Closer inspection....

.... papers say 'Higo'. Seems a bit simpleton.

....date says 2014. Ah.....

 

Will things get better in 2015, or has the NBTHK kodogu shinsa that I found to be so reliable and insightful for decades had a debilitating stroke?

[John A Stuart]

I will back you guys from the ninjas. I have my druthers as well; in the land of the blind though... I am supportive of the intent, the execution is wanting sometimes. John

[Soshin]

Hi Curran,

 

No I don't have any examples for you.  I did have a tsuba Hozon papered by the NBTHK to "Higo" in January 2014 very near your time frame.  I think we have discussed it via email and I remember showing it to you at the Tampa Show back in 2013 before I sent it for shinsa.  When I submitted it I wasn't think Higo.  Attached below is a photo of it along with the NBTHK paper.  I will be testing the NBTHK later this year and early next year with a three submissions of Higo tsuba.  I will let them go as high as they can go in the shinsa (aka Tokubetsu Hozon).  I think all three are fairly clear on their school attributions to Hayashi, Jingo, and Kumagai (Edo Higo).

 

 

As for the NBTHK Ninja I think I have you covered.  Unless they pay me of off with a few nice Tokubetsu Hozon papered Yagyu tsuba.  

 

       

[Soshin]

Hi Curran,

 

I was checking out Fred W. (Nihonto.com) website and found a tsuba with a NBTHK Hozon paper to the Kamiyoshi School.  The Hozon paper is dated the first month of Heisei 26 which is January 2014.  Here is the link website: http://www.nihonto.com/rh460.html .  It looks like a Kamiyoshi School Higo tsuba to me.  I hope you find this helpful in your study.    

[Curran]

Hi David,

 

I thank you for your reply. Initially I thought you'd found something to pop my theory.

 

There isn't a kodogu shinsa in January 2014. The closest one would have been October 2013 or December 2013.

So I am not sure how it works with the dates on the paper, but I think either way the January 2014 issued papers came from a 2013 shinsa.

I'm still looking for something to pop my theory about the Higo "dumb down" of the NBTHK kodogu panel in 2014.

 

Various people have emailed me their 2014 shinsa experiences. Most are at the Hozon level with some interesting attributions.

Some opinion that condition is more important now for Tokubetsu Hozon than rarity. Ie. that shodai Yamakichibei with some rust damage might pass H but fail at TH.

[jlawson]

I've also experienced some very oddball results as of late with attributions on mumei items. No so much with Higo as I don't focus much there but with some other schools. 

[Curran]

James:   I'd seen some too, and saw another oddball one yesterday. A check of the papers, and they turned out to be from June 2014.

____________________________________________________________

 

 

I've corresponded privately with a number of people from NMB and elsewhere. When I launched my question, I EXCLUDED 'Jingo' since that is the easiest of the Higo schools.

 

The replies netted about 30 sets of 2014 'Higo' papers, 3 sets of 2014 'Jingo' papers, and 0 Nishigaki, 0 Hayashi, 0 Hirata, and 0 Kamiyoshi.

Someone may still produce a set, but these sort of numbers discourage me from sending any Higo to the NBTHK at present.

As James said, also seen some very oddball results on some non Higo tsuba.

 

Hoping this situation improves in 2015, as I've spend near two decades regarding NBTHK papers as the definitive opinion-

2014 fittings papers- 

[cabowen]

Have you brought this to the attention of the NBTHK-US?

[jlawson]

Likely not, its easier to just complain about it from afar...... :-) In all seriousness that is really a concern for me and there are several reasons I personally have not. 

1. It is extremely difficult for me to consider myself an expert of such magnitude that I can argue with an organization like the NBTHK. I can most certainly disagree (and sometimes do)  but I also recognize that when I submit something for Shinsa I am paying for THEIR opinion not paying for them to confirm mine.

 

2. The concept of not knowing what you don't know. Even with hundreds of books in my library, the NBTHK has access to information I will never have and more collective knowledge that I possess. Right or wrong on their opinions the simple fact remains that they have a lot of information to base their opinion on. Whether or not they use all of it when making a judgement it is a different story.  

 

3. I do fear a bit of reciprocity when I submit additional items that they may be treated differently if I were to "complain too much" on previous items. Perhaps an irrational fear but it is certainly there for me. 

 

4. Today there is not a great method/process for this feedback loop. Even if one felt comfortable to challenge or thought they had a better answer. 

 

5. The NBTHK judges are a bit transient and the committee this month is likely different than it was a year ago etc. People have different opinions and that is just a fact. Look at some of the discussions we have here. There are also varying degrees of "experts". Unfortunately I have had the experience of getting a judgement I didn't agree with and simply waiting a bit and re-submitting to get the desired result. If there were hard and fast rules this would never happen but because these are opinions it happens every day. 

[cabowen]

It seems to me the issue raised has more to do with incomplete attributions that lack any real value for the time and money invested, rather than the questioning of the basic attribution...

 

It isn't a cheap proposition, in terms of both time and money. I think the issue is a valid one and the question deserves to be answered. I just don't think this venue is the place to get anywhere with it. As I intimated, the NBTHK-US would seem the appropriate place to start.

[jlawson]

Chris yes my comments were more geared to the oddball results I have seen and heard of lately so a bit off topic but in reply to Currans. 

 

I am not sure that bringing it to the NBTHK-AB would have much effect unfortunately. I don't get the feeling that the NBTHK-AB is connected to the NBTHK in a meaningful way so that they could bring up items like this (my opinion). 

It is kind of funny/sad because at Shinsa's here with the NTHK I have been able to talk to a judge on more than one occasion and discussed more specific attributions and had that info corrected on a paper. So Maybe the problem is access to or feeling comfortable enough to discuss with a shinsa judge. 

[Curran]

The point of bringing it to NMB was to acquire data. Many people from Japan to Europe have been kind to contact me through either NMB, my personal email, or my part small site Juyo-Bi.com

 

My bringing it to NMB was done with serious hesitation, as there are some NBTHK dogmatists that will remind me I am not Japanese and to not question authority.

I got a lecture on this from one of our American NBTHK members at the DTI, and it did not endear or educate me.

 

James expressed perfectly several of my sentiments. I am not an NBTHK-AB member any more. With true-true respect to several of the NBTHK-AB senior members and all they do, I do not believe involving them would have that much benefit. I could be wrong. If I am to bring this to the NBTHK, it will be as politely as possible with numbers to back it up. If I do it, I will do it myself and by myself. Let me bear any 'Black Mark', if it exists.

 

That is a big 'If'. Many years ago Tanobe-san wanted me to interact and work with the fittings team on a Norisuke publication for the NBTHK journal. I thought that out of my league and well beyond my Japanese.

That was to be a very positive endeavor which had interested the NBTHK as something new learned from something I own.

This 'Higo, Higo, Higo, Higo, Higo' that Chris gently called "incomplete attributions" is decidedly not a positive or pleasant topic.

 

Speaking only for myself, I am disappointed in the 2014 NBTHK kodogu shinsa. I say this even as I've had some overly favorable papers for non Higo mumei pieces getting much better attributions than I would give them.

For me it has been the Non Higo (good) vs the Higo (bad). But definitely some 'oddballs' coming onto websites and back to people that are a bit of a head scratcher. In the past atypical calls meant something to learn, like the first time I got a 'Kozenji' attribution. It was on me to go learn what the NBTHK was teaching. 

 

For the moment, it is wisest to hold off and see what 2015 brings other people.

I will not be submitting anything 'Higo' to the NBTHK until then, and the non Higo mumei items seem to be a bit of an 'oddball' crap shoot.

The inconsistency of the oddball papers is not appealing to me, even if they sometimes generate a high value.

[cabowen]

I understand your reasoning in asking for data. My point addressed what to do with the data now that it seems you have enough to see a trend and legitimately ask questions.

 

I suggested contacting the AB for three reasons: first, as the NBTHK representative, it's their responsibility to service their members. If you aren't a member, then that is a moot point. The second reason is the simple fact that they are the ones best positioned do something about it, and third, by going through them, they act as an intermediary, which is always a good thing when dealing with Japanese in these situations.

 

As for questioning the NBTHK, like anything else, it depends on the situation and the approach taken. I have run into people (only in the US) who think the NBTHK is infallible and place them on a pedestal- they are only to be spoken of in a hushed voice, you know... They are very much human and as long as one is respectful and courteous, they are quite approachable. Further, It's important to keep in mind that people who submit items to shinsa are paying customers. In Japan, the saying is "okyakusama wa kamisama desu"（お客様は神様です”) - the customer is god. There is a marked difference in questioning their opinion (which in most cases I would say one would be on thin ice) and questioning their service, which to me, is the real issue here, and very much open to question.

[Curran]

Update:

 

The replies netted about 33 sets of 2014 'Higo' papers, 3 sets of 2014 'Jingo' papers, and 0 Nishigaki, 1 Hayashi, 0 Hirata, and 0 Kamiyoshi.

 

Someone today shared with me June 2014 papers to Hayashi.

The particular design is distinctly Hayashi thought later taken over by the Kamiyoshi school after they basically replaced the Hayashi.

Still, a minor bit of anti-proof meaning that there are or were some papers other than 'Higo' at the Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon level last year.

[raiden]

Sorry to be so late on this topic, but I was just made aware of this string. For Curran, here is some evidence for you. People always seem to decide things without all the facts. The following pieces that I will post all past Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon in the year questioned. Some also passed Juyo that same year and last year as well. They are obviously Higo of quality, and I posted partial pics so that everyone can understand the quality level needed for such calls.

1- Nishigaki Kanshiro

2-Nishigaki Kanshiro

3- Hayashi Shigemitsu

4-Hirata Hikozo

5-Kamiyoshi Rakuju (or Fukunobu) I forgot.

6-Rakuju

7-Hayashi Matashichi.

I hope this is helpful for the collectors. I have nothing to do with shinsa, but yes, you can ask the NBTHK judges if you travel to Japan if you are a member for an explanation of a certificate. I have not seen the items that have been talked about in prior parts of this thread, but I must say that they should be seen in hand if any reliable ideas are to be given. I am only posting these items so one can see that high level attributions were given the year in question 2013,2014,2015. Back to work, and forgive me if I do not pay further attention to this thread. I have contributed something of value I believe.

Mike

[DirkO]

That Hirata Hikozo with okina yasuri design is 1 of 2 with shippo zogan and has been extensively written about by Kubo Kyoko in the NBTHK Journals! All are excellent tsuba, Mike! This is just the Higo enthousiast in me speaking up - sorry if it's off topic :-)

A collector I know wanted to try Juyo for a Jinbei tsuba. He knew one of the senior Juyo Shinsa members and talked about the chances it had of succeeding. He replied that while he and other senior members would agree to Juyo, the younger members would not, because they're too focussed on Kinko and don't understand the old iron tsuba on that level.

[Curran]

Sure Mike, post them.

We'll wait.

   The issue was only shinsa after 2014, so throw out yours with papers from 2013 and disregard those that shinsa'd in 2013 but you received the papers in 2014.

I knew the often published Hirata passed Juyo.  The signed one, not relevant to the issue.

 

So please show us the papers on the Kanshiro, the Hayashi, and the daisho set. It would be particularly good since I thought one of them belonged to a friend. It was Kanshiro to both us, but I thought it papered otherwise.

It would be very very good to have some examples prove otherwise.

 

We'll wait,

[Soshin]

Hi Mike,

 

I am following this topic and will participate. Thank you for posting such fine examples of Higo tsuba with equally helpful information.

My Higo tsuba posted above that was papered in Jan. 2014 is nice but is clearly not done by one of the main schools located in Higo. It was likely made by one of the early independent artists that work in the province. Here is a better photo.

[Curran]

Though he is replying to a 1 year old thread,

I'm hoping Mike can actually show papers from post January 2014 shinsa.

 

Hoping we don't need wait another year.

I also really thought one of those tsuba belonged to a friend and papered other than Mike claimed.

I must be mistaken.

   Still waiting for evidence.