Any thoughts on age & school? - Updated on sales/wants

[mfarrar]

Came back from polish looking very nice but decided on another sword for Shinsa so going to let this one go, link to sales/wants with polish pics: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3127

 

Submitting this one in for Shinsa instead: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3107

 

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

I need some help on pinning this one down. I believe it to be o-suriage as the nakago looks to be blade steel.

 

I was having a lot of trouble photographing the blade as it is out of polish so I have included a rather crude sketch of the hamon where I can clearly see it.

 

The hamon looks to be really similar on both sides, there is a part on both sides in the same position where it almost touches the shinogi.

 

Really not sure on the period or school, would be grateful for some opinions.

[John A Stuart]

Hi MP, Can't tell much about whether this is cut froma larger blade by the pics but doesn't have the obvious telltales. Sure seems an ubu blade tome. May I suggest?, looking through some soshu den examples and comparing them to your blade. You seem to be showing hitatsura in your drawing. Not bad by the way. Of course probably Muromachi or later. John

[mfarrar]

Thanks for the reply John. The sugata of the blade does strike me as being ubu but the nakago and its patina I think suggests blade steel.

 

I have now attached a close up pic of the nakago.

 

It does look like hitatsura but just in that one part of the blade I think. There looks to be quite a lot of tobi-yaki.

 

If you class that as hitatsura then Soshu is defintely a possibility, but if it is a Shinto piece or later wouldn't I be correct in thinking that a lot of other schools experimented with hitatsura? Im pretty sure I have seen a Shinto Bizen blade with hitatsura.

 

I am having the mounts restored at the moment, then I will try and get it in for a polish.

[John A Stuart]

Well, I looked at the pic of the nakago and if suriage very well reshaped. The mekugiana looks punched as well. I maintain ubu status though but you may see something I'm missing. If that is hitatsura it sometimes is subdued and not necessarily a rule for soshu den to have it. Tobiyaki could point to mino den which combined soshu with yamato tradition but there was a lot of adaptation within that school.The overall sugata has a soshu feel to me. So mf, this is just my amateur opinion. John

[Jean]

Coming back from a fortnight holiday,

 

Interesting sword as usual in this board. Just a feeling, but the picture of the whole blade makes me feel uneasy.

 

The picture shows a very stout blade but the nakago seems to be an addition to a suriage katana, the yasurime are kiri and the munemachi and hamachi are incredibly crisp.

 

Nevertheless the nakago is perfect

 

an alternative :

 

An o suriage Koto sword with a totally new nakago entirely reshaped.

 

An ubu Shinto blade

Hitatsura is a classical which is found as well in Soshu, Kaga, Bizen, Mino...

 

If the blade is early Soshu, you should find very strong nie, late Soshu, the tobiyaki are crescent moon shaped and the nie tends to disappear - here is a picture of my hitatsura tsunahiro I got from big Mo, notice the crescent moon shaped tobiyaki typicall for late Soshu

[mfarrar]

I just heard that the sword dealer I got it from also felt it was o-suriage.

 

When I have it polished it should make things easier, at the moment its very difficult to make everything out so I will post some more pics then.

 

I think there is supposed to be a UK Shinsa next year so I will try and submit it to that.

 

I remember seeing that Tsunahiro, very nice sword.

[Jean]

Having another look at the nakago picture, I shall add that the rust is quite reddish which could lead to an not-too-old nakago.

 

Question : why reshape a totally new nakago?? is this because the blade is worth it? I hope so

[mfarrar]

lol I hope so too.

 

Going to have to have to delay the polish a bit now because I have just bought another blade. A Shin Gunto mounted Katana with Mon, looks like an old family blade. Will post some pics when it comes through.

[Jean]

THIS IS FREE ADVERTISING FOR OUR FRENCH FORUM :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

An Oustanding Lecture from Kanzan Sato on Nambokucho/Muromachi Hamon, the First part being on Hitatsura.

 

Though, it is in French, you can copy and paste on any web translator to get it in English :

 

 

 

http://token.alldiscussion.net/Etude-de ... hi-t86.htm

[mfarrar]

That link just seems to take me to a login screen not the actual article. Any chance you could translate and post the article on here?

[Martin]

Hi all,

 

here is the result of the Google Online-translation (French > English).

 

best,

HAMON-DURING-THE-NANBOKUCHO-AND-MUROMACHI-PERIOD.pdf

[mfarrar]

Thanks, an interesting read

[Darcy]

I like the way the translation has picked up some Japanese terms and treated them as French terms for translation.

 

Especially the "Sweats Bizen" school. I'm sure the students through the ages would concur :-).

 

Anyway I wanted to point out that this article is where he makes a statement about kantei, in particular he says that Yukimitsu, Masamune and Norishige are three ways of saying the same thing, and the judgment can be tipped one way or another on such minor details that he believes it is in error to even attempt precision past this in a lot of cases. However the general public won't accept that so they go on what they can go on to make the call :-).

[raaay]

Hi mfarrar

 

I here on the grapevine the UK NTHK Shinsa is this year , it is on the 1st & 2nd of November 2008

 

VENUE TO BE CONFIRMED,THE EVENT WILL BE IN LONDON.

 

regards

ray

[mfarrar]

Hi mfarrar

 

I here on the grapevine the UK NTHK Shinsa is this year , it is on the 1st & 2nd of November 2008

 

VENUE TO BE CONFIRMED,THE EVENT WILL BE IN LONDON.

 

regards

ray

 

Yeah thats right, I have my places booked. Not certain yet whether this sword will be one of my submissions but should have a good idea when I get it back Saturday. If it is as good as it sounds then probably but will just have wait and see!

[Guido]

Anyway I wanted to point out that this article is where he makes a statement about kantei, in particular he says that Yukimitsu, Masamune and Norishige are three ways of saying the same thing, and the judgment can be tipped one way or another on such minor details that he believes it is in error to even attempt precision past this in a lot of cases. However the general public won't accept that so they go on what they can go on to make the call :-).

He really had a funny bone in him, didn't he? And I guess a lot of people took this joke at face value ... :D

[RobertM]

Hi,

 

Can anyone tell me where i can find out more about the London Shinsa?

 

thanks

 

Rob Marsden

[mfarrar]

Hi Rob,

 

Unfortunately if you haven't already booked a place it is sold out now. The places went really fast, alot of people have missed out.

[Brian]

Reasons to watch the community forum

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2746

 

It should have been a separate post I guess. Maybe there is a chance of cancelled slots?

 

Brian

[Stephen]

if your local id take a sword any way, showing up is half way there, could be a opening or two for no shows.

[mfarrar]

now on sales/wants: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3127