Sword Legitimacy And Condition Questions

[lethalcurves]

hello all and happy new year.

I was wondering if somebody could help me regarding a sword i know nothing about

As i am begining to collect Japanese swords and this is my first.

My concerns are the legitimacy of the signature and the age of the sword itself.

Also i assume by the pictures the person sent me that the koshirae were not made for this sword as the hibaki looks ill fitting and the tsuka looks too long for the tang.

Also if somebody could also give me a good figure to pay and if it is worth buying it to have the blade polished and basically restore it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gunome]

Hello

 

Seems to be signed hoki no kami fujiwara nobutaka. 伯耆守藤原信高

not sure of the last kanji (taka).

maybe additionnal pic could help to check if it is shinto ?

 

 

[Stephen]

I didn't turn it, was thinking nobushige

[lethalcurves]

Here is a document provided from a guy whom apparently verified it?

 

 

 

 

[Jean]

Dear XXX,

 

Please according to Board's rules sign all your posts with your first name and preferably with an initial, it can be added in your profile.

[cabowen]

There are many generations in the Nobutaka line from Owari. They span Shinto to the end of Shinshinto, 10 generations or thereabouts.

 

If you wish to verify whether or not this signature is good, you will need valid examples from each generation. As you may imagine, this will take a lot of time and resources. You can probably get examples of 3 or 4 generations from searching with google. The others may take a literature search.

 

Depending on what you are looking to pay for this, it may or may not be worth the effort. The sword itself looks to be pieced together. You may do well to invest in some books, improve your knowledge, and find something a bit easier to evaluate.

[lethalcurves]

Yes sorry Jean i have been trying too for the past half hour but it keeps saying name taken?

[Stephen]

why didnt you post the paper first?

[lethalcurves]

There are many generations in the Nobutaka line from Owari. They span Shinto to the end of Shinshinto, 10 generations or thereabouts.

 

If you wish to verify whether or not this signature is good, you will need valid examples from each generation. As you may imagine, this will take a lot of time and resources. You can probably get examples of 3 or 4 generations from searching with google. The others may take a literature search.

 

Depending on what you are looking to pay for this, it may or may not be worth the effort. The sword itself looks to be pieced together. You may do well to invest in some books, improve your knowledge, and find something a bit easier to evaluate.

Thanks for the reply , well the person wants £600.00 GBP for this which i dont if it is a good , bad or fair deal

[lethalcurves]

why didnt you post the paper first?

Because the guy im buying this from is very slow and litteraly just emailed me it as i posted it on here

[Jean]

You can post this problem in the Testing Forum/ask Question section, Brian shall tell you how to do it. Meanwhile, you can add it manually at the end of each post as you do on a letter.

[cabowen]

Hard to say if it is a good deal or not from the photos- if the sword doesn't have any issues, it may be reasonable.

 

I would be careful buying from the Yakuza...

[lethalcurves]

You can post this problem in the Testing Forum/ask Question section, Brian shall tell you how to do it. Meanwhile, you can add it manually at the end of each post as you do on a letter.

Ok thanks for that

 

Jason

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Jason,

Go to FAQ and read what it has to say about beginners wanting to buy, paper, and restore their 1st sword, and wanting to do it yesterday.  Go slow; take the time to become better educated.  The more learning you do the better your decisions will be; if you rush you're very likely to waste money.

Grey

[Ken-Hawaii]

Jason, until you've spent at least a few hundred quid/Euro on reference books, & then spent the time to study & understand them, anything that we tell you isn't going to percolate very deeply. It really is important to do some homework before spending your hard-earned money.

 

Ken

[Brian]

Jason,

Logically, you cannot change your display name to any name used by someone else as a display name or a login name.

The answer is to just add your name in your signature, or otherwise choose another display name not taken, such as Jason X or whatever.

 

Brian

[Darcy]

I can tell you this he is asking a lot less for it than Nobutaka did when he made it.

[pcfarrar]

I'd just like to point out the seller of this sword is not Bill Tagg. He sold this particular sword years ago so has nothing to do with it as it stands. The oshigata he supplies are just for information only.

 

£600 seems to be a fair price by UK standards. I would advise you visit Birmingham miltaria fair so you can see and handle a few swords first:

 

http://www.birminghamarmsfair.com/

[Kronos]

I'd just like to point out the seller of this sword is not Bill Tagg. He sold this particular sword years ago so has nothing to do with it as it stands. The oshigata he supplies are just for information only.

 

£600 seems to be a fair price by UK standards. I would advise you visit Birmingham miltaria fair so you can see and handle a few swords first:

 

http://www.birminghamarmsfair.com/

 

 

 

No offense intended but UK standards are a complete joke as far as I'm concerned. It seems to be drastically overpriced for anything of remote quality on one hand and a lot of ignorance whereby a  decent nihonto can be next to a generic showato and be equally priced on the other. But enough venting about my disdain for the UK sword market, visiting the Birmingham militaria fair is a good idea to see swords in hand.

 

To the OP: the first question when considering price has to always be whether the price to polish, shinsa and original buying price is going to be equal to what it would be worth if it turns out to be the best sword it can be by that smith when signed as this is, while in full Japanese polish and papered. In this regard you're probably talking £2000 for restoration and shinsa inc shirasaya etc. By comparison there's a 10th generation Nobutaka on Aoi art for £3000 and maybe this will be better and with Koshirae might be worth £4000 maximum. so effectively you're gambling and going to all that effort if you wanted it polished for £400-£1400 which imho is not worth it even if it is a fair price.

 

There are alternatives however such as getting it polished by a non-traditionally trained polisher here in the UK for considerably less but I don't feel qualified to comment further on this approach although it may make it a good prospect.

[lethalcurves]

Ok so regarding this sword i have managed to get the seller down to £500.00 on this , so im going to look at this in the morning

What should i look out for ? Is there anything that i should really avoid?

Pitting of the blade?

Also marks in the blade which is folding of the steel could this be mistaken for cracks?

[Jean]

Have added your first name + X. for your signature. You can change the X. by the initial of your family name whenever you want.

 

Here is your answer:

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/flaws.html

[Geraint]

Dear Jason.

"No offense intended but UK standards are a complete joke as far as I'm concerned. It seems to be drastically overpriced for anything of remote quality on one hand and a lot of ignorance whereby a  decent nihonto can be next to a generic showato and be equally priced on the other. But enough venting about my disdain for the UK sword market,"  Well I suppose that if you are buying from a general militaria dealer who has no specific knowledge of Nihonto then you might well find a genuine sword next to a run of the mill shingunto, and if you know what you are doing you might make a good buy.  On the other hand if you were to look at the website of a well known dealer you might fall off your perch at the prices asked.  However Peter's advice was sound and based on his experience as a collector which was surely what you were asking for.

 

Probably too late to suggest his now but if you are not clear about what flaws would make the blade valueless then some research is in order.  Let us know how this turns out.

 

All the best.

[lethalcurves]

Dear Jason.

"No offense intended but UK standards are a complete joke as far as I'm concerned. It seems to be drastically overpriced for anything of remote quality on one hand and a lot of ignorance whereby a  decent nihonto can be next to a generic showato and be equally priced on the other. But enough venting about my disdain for the UK sword market,"  Well I suppose that if you are buying from a general militaria dealer who has no specific knowledge of Nihonto then you might well find a genuine sword next to a run of the mill shingunto, and if you know what you are doing you might make a good buy.  On the other hand if you were to look at the website of a well known dealer you might fall off your perch at the prices asked.  However Peter's advice was sound and based on his experience as a collector which was surely what you were asking for.

 

Probably too late to suggest his now but if you are not clear about what flaws would make the blade valueless then some research is in order.  Let us know how this turns out.

 

 

All the best.

Thank you very much for your advice , well i opted against this sword just when i have a gut feeling it is usually right.

As the guy was very vague in his response and just a pain to deal with.

So what i plan on doing is saving my money and around September time i will also have birthday money.

As i often think ooooh cheap but it is cheap for a reason.

I think i will get sooooooo! Much better for around £1500.00 , there is also a guy i have been speaking to

I cant remember the guys name , but he comes too and from Japan and he will mule a sword for me and i know i will get the best i can out of my money.

I also plan on making my own tsuba and my own custom saya with metal inlay and gold leaf.

I may get custom fuchi kashira but i may get period fittings instead.

Im going to go to northern token society and get some books instead of jumping into it.

As there is no rush for now i will look at my miyamoto Paul Chen chinese made Japanese style Katana until i find the item i want.

 

Thanks again everyone for all your help

 

Jason

[jason_mazzy]

I will bet many a member here will have something of much better value for you when the time arrives.

[Shugyosha]

If you are interested, I have a couple of papered Wakizashi that Ian Chapman has kindly put on the consignment page for me at Nihonto UK:

 

http://nihonto.org.uk/Consignment.html

 

I might be open to offers if either of these look like something that you might be interested in.

 

Best regards,

[6pakki]

Hello,

My first post here, be gentle...

 

I went a bought this sword. It came yesterday well packed and I had little time late evening to inspect the sword. I do agree with Jason X that seller was a handful. He's an "old geezer" so I let it go due respect of his old age.

I was bit disappointed. As it seems to me that someone has tried to tinker with it. There is no yokote left and I strongly suspect that after the garage polish, it has suffered a acid treatment. bugger.

The koshirae seems old and blade does not sit well in tsuka but it wobbles. The tsukamaki is worn and cut since the mekugi was taken off from wrong ura side.  Saya, sageo seems "cheap" but the tsuba still has some golden ornament on it. The sword itself is quite small, 84cm in total and proportions seem to be same than a normal size nihonto. All in all this makes me wonder if it was made for a child, or woman.

 Also about the mei...it is more "crisp" that the overall habitus of the blade so...I dont know. Maybe it is a gimei. The blade seems to have some battle scars and ware and fukure.

 

Well I went and gave it a basic cleaning and put some oil on it. I shall take pictures and measurements later on.

 

Sincerely yours,

[Dr Fox]

Hi Juha

 

A very brave and honest post. It will not make you feel any better, to know that Jason, could well have been in the position you are in now.

But lighten up, as you are not the first, and certainly not the last of those, who have been 'dissapointed', after a purchase. 

Knowledge is key!

 

Hope you find these comments, emanate from my gentle side.

[Brian]

Juha,

Sounds like you have a good grasp of what you have, and what to look for. That is already a step in the right direction. Being able to identify what you have, and spot the flaws etc is part of collecting. Looks like you will be just fine.

 

Brian

[6pakki]

         After the polish. After discussing with togishi.

She might be Bishu Osafune, the quality of steel is apparently really good.

Honsanmai.

Ko-midare, suguha hamon.

Hada itame, ko.mokume, some nice pools there and masame in ha.

Boshi, faint ko-maru or yakizume.

The sori is sakisori in my opinion. Nakago has kiri yasurime. There is traces that nakago is not ubu but nakago-jiri is "ichimonji".

There are two meguki-ana and other seems to be done recently. I cannot see nie or nioi but I am "tsuke-yakiba", no good light and no magnifying glass.

 

She was polished quite often, so someone loved her dearly. Also she has seen battles says togi.

She seems to me late muromachi, Bunroku period?

 

[6pakki]

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