Japanese sword collecting vs Collecting Japanese swords

[Peter Bleed]

Dear Friends,

Several of us have clearly enjoyed the threads started by Barry and Brian on the future of sword collecting. They have been fun, but they have grown to the point that they are hard to scan and absorb. Please let me parse the discussion by suggesting that there actually are a couple of ways of being avocationally interested in Nipponto.

“Japanese sword collecting” describes the hobby practiced in Japan and internationally by people who like to appreciate swords the way the Japanese do. This hobby is organized like much of Japanese society. It is hierarchical, factional, and rule driven. It depends on learning the established categories and becoming expert in their appreciation. The aim of this hobby is to get and appreciate good swords. This hobby has great literature and well organized means for identifying and assessing swords. It also has a clear evaluation scale – NT, Jubu, Jubi, Juto, TBH, Hozon, and . . . well, “other”.

I think this hobby may be in trouble. Younger Japanese seem to be having a hard time entering this hobby. It is expensive and ruled by old guys, but I think the main problem to this hobby is that it is too well organized. In a rather short time- if not already - all the swords in Japan will be evaluated. And in this hobby nobody wants swords that don’t fit in the established evaluation scheme. A sword in Japan with a big name but no origami has got to be suspect. Likewise, this hobby does not have room for “Plane Jaynes”, i.e. potentially nice old swords that show enough down-side potential to make restoration prohibitive. These swords are leaving Japan.

“Collecting Japanese swords” is another hobby. It focuses on acquiring swords and related gear from Japan. The rules of this hobby are very loose. On the margins it includes guys who spend money on things made in China called “katanas.” I don’t like thinking about the low end of this hobby since it includes some real dipshits. At the high end, however, this hobby has made real contributions. This is the hobby that initiated gunto and gendai-to appreciation. If the world wants to know about WWII Japanese swords, they read Fuller and Gregory and Jim Dawson - books that I bet are not even for sale in the Yoyogi.

Hustling is a common variant of this hobby. There are some people who enjoy looking for under-appreciated Japanese swords in “the woodwork.” Variants of this collecting style involve researching “whatever the heck I just discovered.” Another variant is listening to the old veteran tell about where and how he got this sword. Both of these variants are fast disappearing.

Some collectors of Japanese swords have sincere and legitimate interest in Japan and its historic swords – even if they are sort of ordinary. There are people who find Japan interesting. They like reading and thinking about Japanese history. They can find intrigue in swords that “Japanese Sword Collectors” would find wanting. Folks in Tokyo might consider these collectors dipshits, but I think that this category has growth potential.

Peter

[seattle1]

Hello:

As per usual an interesting and thought provoking post Peter, and with a new slant. You speak of the demographic march, of which we are all a part, and that is right to some degree. I am amazed however,more often than not, at shows and on the internet, particularly on the part of internet sellers of better material, that suddenly someone appears out of the dark, full of knowledge and interest. That seems true for new collectors as well: interested, informed, goal driven and information seeking. They could have collected guns, signed baseballs, who knows what, but they are buying swords, and from all over the world.

Arnold F.

[Loco Al]

On the margins it includes guys who spend money on things made in China called “katanas.” I don’t like thinking about the low end of this hobby since it includes some real dipshits.

 

Folks in Tokyo might consider these collectors dipshits, but I think that this category has growth potential.

Peter

 

It is reassuring to know that the "dipshit" category of sword collectors has growth potential. I am quite relieved.

 

You are trying to draw a defining line between those who practice the rather elitist version of "Japanese sword collecting" and those who are simply "collecting Japanese swords", or associated paraphenalia. I would think that the defining boundary is not so clear, and that there are many who fall between the two extremes. Even those guys who are interested in Japan and wish to study swords a bit, but can't afford better swords (limited to "ordinary" swords), are still considered to be "dipshits" by Tokyo standards?

 

Referring back to Barry's thread (What can we do to increase the number of Nihonto collectors?), how can this be helpful?

 

Alan, Ds

[DanC]

What you "high mileage" guys do on this board is about the best you can do to build interest in the field. It gives newcomers a way to get involved, without needing to already be an expert. It gives newcomers a way of making connections and building personal relationships. It gives you the chance to find the new guys that are genuinely dedicated and worth the time mentoring and helping along. If you try mentoring every idiot that wants to buy a samurai sword, you are going to get frustrated and fed up.

[smicha6551]

I'm happily part of the second group. Yes I can appreciate art but I'm really interested in swords (Japanese and non-) as part of history and as a service weapon. A Muromachi period sword that actually would have been carried by a samurai in combat or an Edo period sword that was carried by a Dōshin is far more interesting to me than a perfect Juyo sword that was really never meant to be used (thus explaining why it's in perfect condition today). If snobs consider me a "dipshit" for that so be it

[Alex A]

Hi Peter, ive been having a few similar thoughts lately, the same reason i said "buy wisely" in Barrys thread. Theres a wealth of information available to newcomers that will have an impact on sales. Moneys the problem, but theres more to it. How often do we see newcomers asking for help on a new purchase. When it comes to spending $ you have to ask if you cant find the answer. Its a double edged sword, folk get advice, then a seller looses a sale. Ive asked for help myself sometimes, and still do, its a difficult and tricky hobby. On this site alone theres plenty of information on what and not to buy.

 

A business i know does very well selling "plain janes" at high prices, but the key there is a certain "lack of information", you wont find no "evaluation scheme", not a shinsa paper in sight. There is a market for those not in "the know", folk that dont want to embark on years of study. Its only when a spark is fired or that first book is bought, then that certain naive person starts to ask questions, starts to look for information. Its the information and the advice available, that will sway them away from certain purchases, and theres plenty of information and opinions floating around in cyber world..

[Lance]

I don't believe Peter was really calling anyone "dipshits" . What I took away from his post is that these types of collectors shouldn't really be dismissed as there's a good likelyhood/potential that some of these people are going to be where the next generation of sword students/collectors will come from.

 

Also, except for swords that were made for shrine dedicationss most of the old Juyo swords were made for battle, and used/carried. There's an old saying I remember reading somewhere, that a sword can last one battle or a 1000 years. An oversimplification maybe, of a weapon becoming a family treasure or heirloom after a sanurai carried his weapon through his career or a campaign. More so if it was a very good sword to begin with or the use of it helped raise the standing of that family.

Regards,

Lance

[smicha6551]

Might help if folks here weren't so openly contemptuous of people who aren't as experienced or who don't collect exactly what you collect. And I suppose it might help to clearly explain things and actually answer questions and not just blow new collectors off. But, as many of the worst offenders aren't kids, I guess I should be thankful. Competition, that is to say other new collectors, are driven out with insults (I don't care about other's approval) and as the old nasty folks die off the best swords will go to money (here or Japan) and I'll be better able to afford the lower to mid tier items with less competition.

[Stephen]

Old Nasty Folks??? You wont get much help from us geezer's here grasshopper least not me anyway.

[Jean]

Second times you make a post about how members are comptentuous about newbies.

Your post is full of inexactitude, Steven. I have seen in ten years people leaving the Board but not for the motives you stated. Often people who leave are people who have not a genuine/lasting interest in Nihonto, the learning process being very long and very hard. People willing to learn shall always have support from members. You can't imagine number of e-mails I have had from newbies and the on line teaching I have done to help them in their research. Newbies have to make their homeworks as any member, they can't be spoon fed.

Competition: hard competition for getting Japanese blades/kodogu is for people wanting "the jewels in the mud" thing. Meaning the golden strike, a few bucks for a a real find. If you are not educated, you' ll have 99% chance to get "the sh... In the mud".

Look at Chris' last find, how many years of learning/studying does it take to reach such result? newbies and old collectors/members will never be on the same collection field for obvious reason. Not a question of money but of educated/refined taste (be it gendaito, showato, koto, teppo)

 

I am amazed and full of respect for people like Ron Watson or Ian Bottomley who have mastered their field of interest or other dozen amateurs, Pete Klein, Curran, Mariusz (a guy who 6 years ago was a newbie), Eric H., ... all these guys have been newbies and some certainly had not the means of communication and information we have nowadays.

 

I have been in this collecting field for 40 years, and I have only 5 swords so I am not a competitor in the Nihonto market. Most of members here are not in collecting swords but some in swords collecting.

[Brian]

Well said Jean.

Most of the experienced collectors who have left the board have gone because there is very little to be gained from answering the same questions day after day to people who ignore the advice anyways and are off collecting something else 6 months later.

If beginners are serious, they do not need spoon feeding. They will have been lurking for ages and buying books. They will take advice and go forward when faced with info that is inconvenient. They will not bother with eBay until they learn what to look for and how to identify it.

Those "Old Nasty Folks" are old because they have been doing this for years. And nasty because novices think this is easy and a way to make quick money.

They also spend hours of their time here helping people with no real return on their efforts.

So you had better hope that they don't go away. Because otherwise all you will have is a forum full of beginner treasure hunters comparing their Chinese fakes and trying to sell them to the next beginner.

 

Brian

[smicha6551]

Sure, comes from referring to folks as dipshits (really?) and the eBay tsuba thread that was just locked. I agree it was a bad purchase, I agree it shows a lack of knowledge, and not the nicest poster. But I'm at least asking valid questions and only just before the lock can someone say - it hasn't been mounted, and look at the bee. I was writing a thank you follow-up as finally I knew where to look and compare. But why did it take that many nasty posts to get there?

 

If you're tired of answering the same stupid questions over and over...just don't answer at all. Don't just say "read a book", point them towards Uchigatana Koshirae (it's even sold by a member!); even I was digging through the books I had to try to find something to compare. No luck in the books but I did find three other tsuba online with bees illustrating (hopefully) Brian's point on the bee not looking right...not typing out a sarcastic screed about it being a TH.

 

I don't think my competition thing came through clearly.

[Jean]

Steven,

 

The problem is that you are presenting things wrongly. People are willing to help, but, never come to a Board saying: look what I have found, it is worth much more than the price I paid for, when you don't know its real price.

 

Should Jeffey have come with the same tsuba saying I got this for $... Do you think I did right and if not could you teach/tell me why. You would have gotten nice answers saying:

 

"Well, I don't think it is good for such reasons... Here are some links where you can look at tsuba and see the real thing. Have you read any books about tsuba? I can advice you such and such reading. Concerning e-bay and Japanese swords/kodogu, perhaps 1 or 2 % are worth the buy but you have to be an expert and have a few years of study before detecting them. If you want to buy something on e-bay, just PM me and we can talk over this object".

 

No one on this Board is introducing himself as an expert, there are too many :D and I am not one.

[Marius]

I don't think my competition thing came through clearly.

 

It did, but:

 

- the market is big and diverse enough for all of us

- not everybody is chasing the same things (same as above)

- more collectors means more liquidity and facilitates selling

- newcomers create demand for lower end items (not to be confused with crap) that more advanced collectors sell to move up

 

Shall I go on?

[LakeBum]

As a newer guy here I have been corrected when I needed to be corrected and I have been helped when I needed help. Just like a group of good coaches should be!

[Rich S]

As one of the old geezers, I check this board several times a day. I respond when I have something to add to the discussion at hand. That is not often as I'm not anywhere near an "expert", just a guy who likes Japanese swords and other sharp, pointy things. Most of the time I have little to contribute as my depth of knowledge is quite limited. I've been out of active collecting for some time. IMHO, there is only one basic rule to collecting anything:

 

Collect what you like, but like what you collect.

 

All else is made up categories for those who like to "specialize". I like all sorts of fine cutlery from Bronze age artifacts, 19th C "bowies", Swiss army knives, Finnish puukko and Japanese swords - just to mention a few and I've enjoyed it for over 60 years.

 

Rich S

[Peter Bleed]

Dear Friends,

The point of my initial post was to encourage diversity and tolerance in sword collecting. I apologize for using a mildly vulgar term. I hoped that the term would be taken as light, jocular quip. I did not mean to be offensive. And for the record, let me assure Dan that I was in no way offended by his cleaver characterization of me as a “High mileage guy.”

There is plenty of self interest in welcoming to new collectors, but we are not recruiters or salesmen. Expert sword collectors worked hard to acquire knowledge. They have also organized information in ways that make collecting much easier to master than it was. New collectors should accept some responsibilities and expect some challenges.

Peter

[DanC]

Dear Friends,

The point of my initial post was to encourage diversity and tolerance in sword collecting. I apologize for using a mildly vulgar term. I hoped that the term would be taken as light, jocular quip. I did not mean to be offensive. And for the record, let me assure Dan that I was in no way offended by his cleaver characterization of me as a “High mileage guy.”

 

Well, I was trying for something that referred to the time and effort taken to gain experience, not age. There are older guys who are new and younger guys who have already been at this for years. And for the record, I can be a bit of a dipshit myself, so, no offense taken here.