What can we do to increase the number of Nihonto collectors?

[CSM101]

I once organized two meetings. And after that I got depressed.

 

The first one almost started with a fist fight. Something in the water, bad vibrations, whatever...

 

The second one was better. 12 guests, mostly Martial Arts. Theme: Osaka-Shinto. As far as I remember one guest had a Hidari Mutsu no Kami Kaneyasu. Some of the guests never saw a polished blade before.

 

And I never heard of one of them again.

 

First problem is, even with Markus, all the better books are in English. And after that comes Japanese. Why should people buy books when 20 words, including the koshirae, are more than enough to describe a katana?

 

Next problem: oshigata. Something invited by the Japanese to confuse all others.

 

No photos! With google and wikipedia there must be photos. "Infos within 2 seconds or I´ll be gone."

 

So, what I want to say: collectors, especally long time collectors are dying out. Stamps, coins, books, comics, cards. We all share the same problem.

 

 

Uwe G.

[smicha6551]

There seems to be a "critical mass" of members that once you fall below, it's hard to keep a group going.

 

When you say there's only 20 terms needed for Japanese swords - isn't it more like about 1700 (just based on two books of Japanese terms 1100 Japanese Sword Terms and 600 Japanese Sword Fittings Terms). What's the problem with oshigata?

[Jean]

George,

 

When one wants to subscribe to a Forum, the least he/she can do is to comply with its rules. That is what I call "to behave". Not doing this is showing disrespect to other members who comply. I don't know if you have noticed but 80% of old Board members are using their own names as avatar and not fancy names.

Being between adults (though sometimes I doubt it - speaking for myself ), it is much friendlier to adress someone by his first name, unless he is ashamed of it :D.

 

Now to come back to the topic:

 

- to be a Nihonto collector requests certain features which must be all met, first have a collector mind, second, have an interest in Japan, third, have an interest in Japan history, fourth, have an interest in Antiques, fifth, have an interest in edged weapons or Armours or Teppos or kodogu/Tosugu.

 

Once all these conditions are met, with all the information available with the web, the would be collector won't discourage easily.

 

The number of Nihonto collectors is certainly increasing and mainly thanks to media development.

[Stephen]

personally i always get a kick out of the signature police....who's going to hit them first...LOL yawl taking life, swords and protocol way to serious.

[Loco Al]

What can we do? The real barrier, as I see it, is that this is still basically (and probably always will be) a niche hobby. Many North Americans might consider it a somewhat distasteful or ignoble obsession to be collecting swords, whether they be Japanese swords or otherwise. If they are educated and well to do (with disposable income to invest in art), then perhaps they might rather prefer to buy something of cultural significance more relevant to their own geographic location and cultural heritage. Paintings perhaps, by renowned artists of their own nationality. Why would you want to buy a Japanese sword of all things, they might ask? Hard to impress your friends when they have no reference point as to how special or unique your acquisition is as an "art form". The concept of the Japanese sword as an art form might never occur to them.

 

Some older people, and their immediate descendants, might still have bad memories about the Second World War and the ill treatment of American prisoners (not to mention the horrible battles they endured) by the Japanese. Why should they wish to secure an item that reminds them of this traumatic history? The blades that were brought home by most American G.I.'s were considered to be trophies or souvenirs, nothing more.

 

So why should one wish to ensure that we can increase the numbers of nihonto collectors? Is it perhaps selfish motivation because we wish ensure that there will be a continued demand for items that we have already purchased (and might wish to sell later on before we die), or because we really believe that these are truly works of fine art that should be preserved for generations to come. If the later is true, then I believe that the best swords should eventually be returned to Japan where they might be best appreciated as culturally significant. I wonder if there might not come a day when the Japanese might wish to reacquire these symbols of heritage that represent a more noble time in Japanese history. As Jean said, first you have to have a vague interest in Japanese culture before you even consider nihonto.

 

So far, this thread has strayed a bit off topic.

 

 

Let's deal with Barry's points in order:

 

1. Take personal responsibility.

 

What if there are no sword clubs in your immediate vicinity? Say the only closest thing is a kenjutsu club, and you have no interest in martial arts (nor do you have any friends who are interested in such). Do you go out of your way to introduce yourself, and say that you have some fancy swords that you would like to show off?

Regarding gun clubs: Sure these might be the type of people who more likely to be interested in militaria, but is this really the best that we can hope to achieve? Don't get me wrong, I belong to a gun club. I do not think that there is a great future in this. Furthermore: If this nihonto fascination were to be firmly associated with the "gun nut" culture, then that could only be deleterious.

 

2. Use Social Media.

 

If for those who are already interested in nihonto, then by all means. Otherwise, for those young (and not so young people) people who are continually preoccupied with social media such as Twitter and Facebook, forget it. One day they may make wake up to the realisation that there is more to life than continually updating their internet profle (much like updating one's profile on this board with vacuous comments), if they have any money left over after paying their exhorbitant cellphone bills, and decide to pursue a hobby which might actually be of some genuine cultural significance.

 

3. If you are a member of a sword club, ask others to join.

 

I'm not a member of a local sword club, but I did take out a membership for the NBTHK. What if you reside in a professional and social circle where the notion of buying Japanese swords is totaly foreign and perhaps considered to be unacceptable. I am a 54 year old professional. I have mentioned to a few colleagues that I recently started collecting Japanese swords. This news was met with a few raised eyebrows. "Everyone has their peculiarities", said one. They were not even remotely interested in seeing what I had acquired. Their loss, perhaps. When I mentioned a painting that I had acquired by a nationally famous historical artist, then they were interested. Elitist perhaps, but with good reason. That painting was a good investment.

 

So again, why should I try to encourage new nihonto collectors? I certainly could care less whether more Russians or Chinese become interested. In fact, I would prefer the opposite. I think that this hobby will smolder along, until such time as a future generation of Japanese people decide that they want to have their best swords back for the sake of their culture.

 

Alan

[Alex A]

I remember the reactions from folk i know when i first started collecting. Most of the guys found them interesting, but when they asked how much, i knew full well they thought id gone slightly bonkers . The girls of these guys thought i had become a bit of an eccentric, a geek :lol:. Judging by these reactions, its fair to say this hobby is a "niche", to say the least. With the interest in Nihonto, Koi, bonsai and now a "Japanese bronze vase", im beginning to wonder if i was Japanese in a former life :lol:. Anyone remember this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEmJ-VWPDM4 . My brother went through a brief spell of annoying me with it. .

 

Even with all that, i dont think there will be any shortage of newcomers in the future, eccentrics abound :lol:

[smicha6551]

So far as gun clubs are concerned, I suppose it depends on the club. The ones that have the resources to actually purchase Nihonto tend to trend on the older side - which is fine but that tends to be the age when folks are divesting from various hobbies. On the other hand the ones around my age might be interested in a reasonably priced gunto mounted sword but would have me committed if I told them I was looking at a sword for $3K - never mind suggesting something like a Juyo. Those that are already hostile to - as you say - gun nuts are probably already hostile to swords anyway.

 

I wouldn't be so fast to discount social media - if this forum was on Facebook, if I was to Like or comment or comment on say a Tsuba it would be shown to a decent number of educated folks (and some dolts...) spreading the word a lot further than on an obscure forum that I stumbled upon after a bit of searching. Actually, I've posted a few Tsuba from Aoi Arts on my facebook page. Young people (I'm hearing some real "Get off my lawn" tone) aren't not participating in the study of Nihonto thanks to cell phone bills -think factors such as lack of exposure, friends and family not bringing new people in, really high cost of participation, student loans, lack of jobs...

 

I'm lucky that where I live and work (NOVA, govt. contracting) weapons (and that's what they are - very nice ones but still tools to kill people) aren't thought of in such a negative way. I'm not sure what you mean about the painting being a good investment - if you're referring to your colleagues approval, well unless it's leading to more or better work I don't see any reason to chase after their approval. If someone wants to learn about what I collect, great. If not, their loss.

[Dr Fox]

Alan

 

Some very good points, some of which I can relate to. A friend of mine of 40 years saw my first nihonto, an expensive blade shown off the art as we appreciate it.

His startling reaction was "Whats wrong with you, I don't know why you would want that thing in your house"!

He was in what appeared to be the first stages of shock! Now before I do as I am accusing others of doing (off topic), I just want to say, unless the seeds of a genuine interest are there, you will be trying to teach a pig to sing.

[Darcy]

What can we do? The real barrier, as I see it, is that this is still basically (and probably always will be) a niche hobby. Many North Americans might consider it a somewhat distasteful or ignoble obsession to be collecting swords, whether they be Japanese swords or otherwise. If they are educated and well to do (with disposable income to invest in art), then perhaps they might rather prefer to buy something of cultural significance more relevant to their own geographic location and cultural heritage. Paintings perhaps, by renowned artists of their own nationality. Why would you want to buy a Japanese sword of all things, they might ask? Hard to impress your friends when they have no reference point as to how special or unique your acquisition is as an "art form". The concept of the Japanese sword as an art form might never occur to them.

 

I've never heard of anyone calling sword collecting "ignoble" or "distasteful" (!!!) and I think it is maybe just that the people you are interacting with have the problem. Certainly a lot of people like paintings, and some people with the kind of resources available to buy really legitimate paintings of high caliber may also be the kind of people to turn their noses up at *everything*.

 

But never anywhere have I encountered the opinion that sword collecting is something to be ashamed about and if your friends are making you feel like that the issue is with the friends, not sword collecting. Secondly if your goal is to impress your friends then you need to either find friends who share your enthusiasm for swords and don't consider it "distasteful and ignoble", -or-, change your own interests to match those of your friends so that you will have your collecting decisions pre-approved by their bias.

 

Some older people, and their immediate descendants, might still have bad memories about the Second World War and the ill treatment of American prisoners (not to mention the horrible battles they endured) by the Japanese. Why should they wish to secure an item that reminds them of this traumatic history? The blades that were brought home by most American G.I.'s were considered to be trophies or souvenirs, nothing more.

 

That sounds strange to me. Russia lost maybe around 25 million people to German actions but Russians happily visit Germany for tourism and BMW, Mercedes, etc. are all very popular cars on the streets of Moscow. Germany's ally Italy of course can find their products on the feet and clothing any and all well dressed Russian women and those that don't have Italian products want them. The USSR suffered more than any other country during WWII and has more tragedy to remember yet somehow people have put it all behind them and are living in the present. Similarly France and Germany are members of the same political union and Japan though being the only country to suffer a nuclear weapons attack happily embraces the products and culture of the country that did it to them.

 

I don't see that samurai antiques are any different in this. In the USA and worldwide are many Japanophiles who enjoy various aspects of Japanese culture. You have cosplay happening everywhere now, manga and anime fans have been around forever, Japanese film buffs are in all countries and the samurai have resonated with young men everywhere in all countries. It's that last part that is the seed that drove us all in some way to where we are now. I don't see that samurai historical items, be they swords or fittings or anything else, are going to be the one historical thing somehow tied into WWII that causes trauma flashbacks going 70 years. Some countries banned Nazi paraphernalia but this is a reaction to stomping out the Nazi political message that some people still try to keep alive today.

 

So why should one wish to ensure that we can increase the numbers of nihonto collectors? Is it perhaps selfish motivation because we wish ensure that there will be a continued demand for items that we have already purchased (and might wish to sell later on before we die), or because we really believe that these are truly works of fine art that should be preserved for generations to come. If the later is true, then I believe that the best swords should eventually be returned to Japan where they might be best appreciated as culturally significant. I wonder if there might not come a day when the Japanese might wish to reacquire these symbols of heritage that represent a more noble time in Japanese history. As Jean said, first you have to have a vague interest in Japanese culture before you even consider nihonto.

 

The funny thing is that a lot of the very good swords are leaving Japan because people elsewhere find them culturally significant much more so than many people inside Japan. I don't understand the cultural bias buckets that you're trying to put things into. White people from North America should collect paintings. Japanese people should collect Japanese swords. Everyone should stick with their own cultural things because that's what they understand and appreciate. This to me is an outdated thought and a strange message. People haven't felt like this in general for centuries. Or more. The Romans brought Egyptian artifacts to Rome. Europeans brought back Chinese artifacts to Europe. Societies always have an outward looking element which has had fascination for cultures and artifacts that come from somewhere else. As a counterpoint there are inwards looking knuckleheads who pound the table and won't drink that strange funny furriner beer. But because those guys are out there doesn't mean it has to be one or the other. If you are associated with that type then the problem again is in your choice of who you surround yourself with, if it is leeching your enthusiasm.

 

So if you are disillusioned and resigned and believe that, then maybe the best approach is indeed to do what your instincts are telling you. Repatriate your own swords and find people inside Japan who will respect them and appreciate them... If you think it is of no use to expand the base of collectors and bring more people into the hobby then it sounds like you have already checked out mentally on it. But because you have doesn't mean the rest of us have. Your viewpoint to me sounds fatalistic and depressing.

 

 

What if there are no sword clubs in your immediate vicinity? Say the only closest thing is a kenjutsu club, and you have no interest in martial arts (nor do you have any friends who are interested in such). Do you go out of your way to introduce yourself, and say that you have some fancy swords that you would like to show off?

 

 

Sure, why not? Start one.

 

Look, there is a collector in Montreal who is not fatalistic, who has embraced Japanese culture and aesthetics like he was born to it and would reject out of hand (as I think most of us will) this idea that Japanese should do Japanese things like sword collecting, Canadians should collect paintings by Canadians, Americans should drink American beer and not that foreign stuff, and so on. And some people are enthusiastic and find ways to open up to the community. I will actually point out two Montrealers who did good things.

 

Pierre Nadeau pretty much out of nowhere decided he was going to become a swordsmith. On his own he contacted people and created and arranged an exhibit that was very well attended and what he found (and I found as I was one of the people he asked to help and I did) was that there was a lot of curiosity and interest out there. Contrary to your friends who find it "ignoble and distasteful" these people found it "interesting and engaging" and had many questions and were thrilled to see what he organized.

 

Richard Beliveau went even further, organizing a museum exhibit which attracted over 250,000 visitors, none of whom likely believed it to be "ignoble and distasteful" to be viewing samurai artifacts, but were quite enthusiastic about it. From when Richard was a young man mowing lawns for spare change he would take that money and go and buy anything Japanese he could find and as put together a very wide collection of interesting artifacts. He's designed his life outside of his profession around this enthusiasm for things Japanese. And his relentless enthusiasm, interest and excitement for things Japanese rubs off very easily. He never sat there and worried about what his friends were thinking. He went out and implemented his vision, opened his arms to the city and said come and have a look. And people came and had a look.

 

The museum was doubtful about the exhibit, and he told them, quoting what he said to me, "If you do this I will bring people to your museum who have never even gone to a museum before."

 

Now this guy has the completely 180 degree view from you. Not only has he not given up, nor is he worried about his friends, nor is he looking to find a reason to not even begin to do something, but when encountering some pushback he throws this gauntlet down. He says, just give me a place to stand, I have the lever, and I am going to move the world. The guy is a frickin hero. But you need to have that kind of mentality if you're going to do something. And he did it. He pulled it off. If he was going to sit and go through anxiety over what his neighbors thought, then he'd have never done it. He would have never built that bridge. So the major problem is in the mentality of defeat vs. the mentality of victory.

 

The point I had raised earlier is that these people who have interest are out there. If we are not encountering them it's because we're on our island with just us. Guys like Pierre and Richard went into this with their own ideas, and most importantly, enthusiasm. Though they were not strongly connected to our communities when they started but were real solo artists they went in without any biases and without any model that was handed to them about "this is how it is done." So they went out there and they just did what they thought was good. And in both cases it had major positive impact. If *anyone* told either of these guys that their interests were ignoble and distasteful, they certainly didn't care and knowing them they probably would have laughed it off. It didn't push them into the closet like some fetishist. They put their interests squarely in the open and they built a bridge to everyone else. And people crossed those bridges and found they were in a cool place.

 

Now, why should we do this, why should we not just gaze into our navels and be depressed and send all our swords back to Japan, never eat sushi again, eat some maple syrup and crack open a Pabst Blue Ribbon, watch hockey north of the border and baseball south of it and refuse to watch football unless you can score one point on a punt depending on what country you come from.... because it is actually fun and fulfilling to share your interests with other people who will mirror back your interests.

 

It's why we're here on this board.

 

The secondary issue of maintaining a healthy economy is useful to everyone who has bought or owns a sword unless they're planning a very elaborate burial mound.

 

 

Regarding gun clubs: Sure these might be the type of people who more likely to be interested in militaria, but is this really the best that we can hope to achieve? Don't get me wrong, I belong to a gun club. I do not think that there is a great future in this. Furthermore: If this nihonto fascination were to be firmly associated with the "gun nut" culture, then that could only be deleterious.

 

 

This is another real leap of logic. That a sword club by relation is a gun club, and because *some* people think that gun clubs are for *nuts*, therefore all people will consider sword clubs for nuts, and because of this, we should never attempt to establish a sword club?

 

Why is the opinion of people who are negative towards our collecting so important? We don't need to impress anyone and we don't need approval from *everyone*, we want only to invite people to join us who *might* be interested or who *are* interested but don't know how to find us.

 

2. Use Social Media.

 

If for those who are already interested in nihonto, then by all means. Otherwise, for those young (and not so young people) people who are continually preoccupied with social media such as Twitter and Facebook, forget it. One day they may make wake up to the realisation that there is more to life than continually updating their internet profle (much like updating one's profile on this board with vacuous comments), if they have any money left over after paying their exhorbitant cellphone bills, and decide to pursue a hobby which might actually be of some genuine cultural significance.

 

I'm beginning to see a theme of defeatism and negativity in these thoughts. First we should care about our friends looking down on our swords (never have I seen this personally, only people thinking it's pretty cool). Second we can't enjoy or embrace arts that do not come from our own cultures. Third we can't gather together because people will think we are nuts. Fourth, social media is a dead end not only for us but for the whole world? Honestly you're talking about kids not being able to pay their cellphone bills as a reason that we should not be up to date with today's technology?

 

The telephone came, and replaced traditional communications. Email came, and replaced traditional communications. Text messaging came, and replaced traditional communications. Video conferencing came, and replaced traditional communications. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all are further developments in this same path, where new ways of communicating are opening up. They are not going to vanish overnight anymore than the silly horseless carriage, or flying in a winged tube, or the telephone, TV, or any of this did. We don't move backwards, we move forward.

 

Pen and paper ate into face to face. Telephone ate into pen and paper. Email ate into telephone. Texting ate into email and telephone. Facebook, Twitter, eat into everything that came before them. This is called progress. Taking yourself out of this and thinking that you have arrived at the end point, and that all developments that come after your time are just trends that are going to reverse themselves, is putting yourself at the center of the technological universe. But it doesn't work like that. If Twitter, Facebook, etc. are going to get eaten into it is going to come from the *next* revolution, not from the previous one. These are not trends, any more than the telephone was a trend. They are sea changes in communication, they are doors that have opened and people have gone through.

 

There is not so much hope for people that won't embrace it. People carrying their chequebook to the grocery store to pay for their groceries are going to get a bit of a blank stare nowadays. I can't remember the last time I even wrote a cheque. The world moves on, anyone wanting to remain relevant needs to embrace the changes that come along.

 

Rather, instead of looking inward and backwards, the point is to look forward.

 

 

3. If you are a member of a sword club, ask others to join.

 

I'm not a member of a local sword club, but I did take out a membership for the NBTHK. What if you reside in a professional and social circle where the notion of buying Japanese swords is totaly foreign and perhaps considered to be unacceptable. I am a 54 year old professional. I have mentioned to a few colleagues that I recently started collecting Japanese swords. This news was met with a few raised eyebrows. "Everyone has their peculiarities", said one. They were not even remotely interested in seeing what I had acquired. Their loss, perhaps. When I mentioned a painting that I had acquired by a nationally famous historical artist, then they were interested. Elitist perhaps, but with good reason. That painting was a good investment.

 

Again, this kind of means your friends have some kind of bias and maybe you need new friends. It doesn't mean that people should never try to invite new people into sword groups... because your friends have their nose up in the air. We can add "peculiar" to "ignoble and disasteful"... your friends sound very charming, they sound like they are all wearing monocles and top hats as well. Why do you even want to associate with these people if they make you feel this way about your collecting? Why do you want to collect if you want so badly impress this crowd who has no interest, their minds made up about what is important, and who obviously do not accept what you want to do?

 

If someone is gay and hanging around with homophobes they're just causing themselves distress. If they're a different race hanging around with racists then the same thing. Because some people are homophobic does not mean that all people will have negative attitudes to gay people. Because some people are racists doesn't mean that all people must only associate with their own race for fear of "what will the neighbors think." Instead you see people making friendships though they are of different orientations and you see people marrying outside their race and in today's world getting a lot of support. There is a lot of open mindedness out there and because your friends are really negative towards your collecting doesn't mean that there are not cool people out there who will embrace it. To get turned off and give up because you've encountered some negativity and suspect that all people must then be negative is a failure of your thinking only.

 

Personally, I think all of this says about your descriptions of your friends attitudes is that you in particular would *most benefit* from starting a sword club because you would surround youself by enthusiastic, positive people who make you feel accepted and legitimized because they *support* what you are doing. You ask what benefit do we get out of clubs? This is the benefit we get out of clubs! You won't be faced with feeling like a closet fetishist who's friends disapprove and think they are peculiar but you will get a positive emotional charge out of people who share your (seemingly waning) enthusiasm.

 

Furthermore you will be in a position to teach and this too is fulfilling and energizing.

 

There are so many positive ways of looking at it, and if you don't want to see them then probably your happiest path is to just hang it up and do what your friends think you should be doing. The gay man must become straight because his friends think that gay is wrong. The white man who falls in love with a black woman, they must go their own paths because what will the neighbors think. The white woman who falls in love with a black woman... they have a long way to reach to get back to mainline cultural conformity. For some, they do it, they conform to what is around them in order to get that approval because they feel better with the approval.

 

Others say screw that, I'm doing what makes me happy, and if you think that's wrong, you can go to hell and I'm going to find people who support me in what I want to do. And I think a greater degree of happiness is in that direction and that's what people can get out of clubs.

 

But I never read about someone who feels so gloomy about sword collecting as an idea because it is not sufficiently impressing the people around them that they wish to be impressed. I would say this is chasing the wrong idea. Do what you find interesting, find people who share your enthusiasm, and you can feed off of each other and if it makes your old friends drop their monocles into their champagne glasses in shock then so be it.

 

So again, why should I try to encourage new nihonto collectors?

 

See previous.

 

I certainly could care less whether more Russians or Chinese become interested. In fact, I would prefer the opposite.

 

Inwards and backwards.

 

I think that this hobby will smolder along, until such time as a future generation of Japanese people decide that they want to have their best swords back for the sake of their culture.

 

If the Japanese suddenly wake up and choose en masse to spend their money on re-acquiring swords that are abroad, great, no big deal. Chinese collectors went about buying up all the Chinese porcelain that they could. What did this do? It stimulated a lot of interest in Chinese porcelain. People didn't just give up and send all their stuff back to China, "Oh well, better go watch the baseball game, the Chinese want their porcelain back. Now I can't collect anymore."

 

I don't understand this viewpoint at all.

 

Certainly, saying no to every positive action limits the amount of positive change such a person can make. But in your case, I think if you took some positive actions the biggest beneficiary would be you, it would probably have a huge impact on your personal viewpoint and how you feel about things. And it would also be beneficial to the community as well.

[Darcy]

 

First is shape. Is it balanced, pleasing, even, etc.? Appropriate to the period, smith, school?

 

Next is the jitetsu: is it well forged, without flaws, even, clear, deep? What color is the steel? Deep blue/purple is considered best. Black, etc., second rate. Is there ji-nie, chikei, etc.? Are they uniform, consistent?

 

Then there is the hamon. The biggest concern is the habuchi. Is it even in thickness, clarity and brightness throughout? Are the nie even in shape and size (they should be)? Is the hamon pattern controlled, well formed, consistent?

 

Next is the boshi: How well is it formed? Is it controlled, even, without flaws?

 

Lastly, the nakago: Is it well formed, filed, and finished? Is the mei well cut?

 

Finally, does everything fit together in harmony and balance?

 

Being able to kantei and being able to judge quality are different sides of the same coin.

 

After seeing enough good swords, you will start to recognize quality and be able to differentiate between good and bad. It doesn't take all that long. Being able to tell the difference between a good and great is a different story...

 

This is all true and furthermore I think plugs into the equipment we already have built into our brains. The pleasing aesthetics of form are things that we see in the grace of a dancer, beautiful jigane mirrors what we see in the finish of well made woodworking. Balance, harmony and symmetry we admire in faces and can find in swords. We don't have to be taught to recognize a lot of this stuff but we may need some experience in understanding how to look at it to fully appreciate it.

 

Anyone can admire the beauty of a ballet dancer en pointe, I don't know of anyone who looked at this with shock and horror. A well made tabletop should generate universal feelings of warmth and a desire to touch it (and I'm sure we've all seen people who's first time reaction to a sword is to reach out with their fingertips).

 

We have all the mental equipment here to evaluate these things. There are secondary subjective elements which come to play in terms of what style you like. But aesthetics come with a lot of built in hardware recognition in humans. Of course, no accounting for taste and the ability to *create* according to those same rules of aesthetics may be completely lost within a person. But generally when something is hit spot on in the aesthetics department it deeply and universally resonates. Sometimes we see it in nature, the Eagle has always symbolized power and majesty and it's constantly been used by people to represent themselves when they want to project this concept because it really universally resonates.

 

You don't need to be a luthier or a guitarist to recognize a finely made guitar, you don't need to build cars or race them to be impressed by the lines of a classic Ferrari, and you don't have to be a student of classical music in order to feel a thrill during the 9th symphony.

 

The best swords I think hit that note and if the person is a bit tone deaf it does not take a lot of exposure to get them on tune.

 

One of the problems is getting that sufficient exposure to greatness. It's hard to do in books, in the same way it's hard to make someone feel that thrill of Beethoven by writing about the music. You can write and write and write but ultimately you need to put their butt in the seat and say, "Just listen." After they may say it's boring still, in which case, can't account for taste. But the aesthetic elements are all there and remain universal to a great degree.

[cabowen]

No doubt there are people who raise an eyebrow at collecting Japanese swords, or any other weapon, for that matter. And there are those that think ALL collectors are goofy....

 

Perhaps hard to believe, but these negative attitudes are quite common in Japan as well. I was told on more than one occasion by other professors that I best keep my collecting of Japanese swords to myself. I was also told quite early that "only baseball players and uyoku (ultra nationalist nuts) collect Japanese swords".

 

So, yes, the hobby is not the most fashionable in all circles. I never let this bother me. Friends are friends- they understand. That's what friends do.

 

Regardless, there is lots of interest already out there. Look at how the number of sword listings on Ebay has gone from a page of a hundred or so 15 years ago to over 7000 at any one time now... the boom in Chinese fakes and Chinese versions of sword for martial arts has grown exponentially because of this interest. Again, and I don't think it can be stressed too much: lack of interest is clearly NOT the problem in the West (like it is in Japan). It is lack of MONEY among those interested, along with the increase in supply, that is causing the market to soften in the middle.

 

If we look at the members of this site as a proxy, I have no doubt the membership has increased year to year, reflecting interest. If we took a poll I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of members here have never spent more than $3000-$4000 on a sword, have never had a sword polished, and have no immediate plans to do so.

 

I am not saying that we shouldn't do all we can to stimulate interest and foster the next generation of collectors. I just don't think we should kid ourselves as to where the market is and where it is most likely to be heading. We need to understand the reasons for this so that we can develop realistic ways to deal with it...

[Alex A]

Money eh?...It is possible for average Joes (like me) to buy 3,4,5,6,7000$ swords, buy a push-iron or a really cheap knockabout (recommend 1.2 fiesta, 2004 model with lowish mileage £1200), run that for 3 or 4 years instead of buying that nice new shiny motor and spend that money on swords , the swords will be a better investment (hopefully) in the long run. The one big thing is make sure you have your own home and your misses doesnt live with you, 30 miles should suffice :lol:

 

Only joking, not financial advice. Seriously though, most folk interested in swords will no doubt bump into the NMB site sooner or later, so, keep up the good work, if anything will get new folk into the hobby, its this..

[Loco Al]

Alan

 

Some very good points, some of which I can relate to. A friend of mine of 40 years saw my first nihonto, an expensive blade shown off the art as we appreciate it.

His startling reaction was "Whats wrong with you, I don't know why you would want that thing in your house"!

He was in what appeared to be the first stages of shock! Now before I do as I am accusing others of doing (off topic), I just want to say, unless the seeds of a genuine interest are there, you will be trying to teach a pig to sing.

 

Yes, Denis, it would tend to take the wind out of your sails when you receive a "compliment" like that!

 

Darcy certainly picked holes in my weak argument. Poor choice of words when I said "ignoble". Not quite what I intended. Yes, I will confess that I tend to be a bit of a defeatist.

Hence the recently chosen avatar featuring the German Shepherd Matilda. I found a photo of her online, up for adoption. Her posture and woeful beaten down expression quite express how I presently feel. I shall delete her in due course.

 

This was perhaps chosen as an attempt at humour, in response to Jean's recent post (in response to George) regarding the use of avatars and "not fancy names".

 

What really takes the cake, regarding my recent mention of gun nuts: I just saw a new post in the Translation Assistance section where the new poster goes by the board name (user name) of "gun addict"! Honestly! I am laughing myself silly. I hope most of you have a sense of humour too.

 

Alan

 

 

 

[Lance]

I don't really see "gun nuts" being hostile to swords, most collectors/hobbyists of any sort will understand another's enthusiasm, even if they don't share a particular interest in that field.

People without this peculiar mindset don't really get the drive to collect anything, it doesn't seem to matter if it's a sword or a comic book, or pottery; it's just odd to them.

 

I've actually made quite a few decent sword and tosogu purchases at local militaria/gun shows; some even from dealers selling old and new firearms too. For the most part all are friendly, Sellers of antique swords, medals, uniforms fighting knives and sabers etc. all set up right next to guys selling new "tactical" rifles, and everybody gets along fine (and buy from each other too).

If you didn't think you'd be slumming (joke) a weekend trip or two a month to local militaria/gun shows eventually turns up something good or better, and you might come across other collector/dealers of Nihomto too depending on the show.

Regards,

Lance

[DanC]

... the swords will be a better investment (hopefully) in the long run.

 

When collecting becomes investment, it becomes a problem for collectors.

[Alex A]

Hi Dan, i think you may need to have a re-read. I said that swords may be a better investment than a CAR in the long run, my humour : . Good or bad, no matter what way you look at it, there an "investment". An expensive hobby, as you know. For an average guy to take part, there needs to be some kind of "justification" to the spending. For me, i just see it as money spent enjoying life :lol:, bit like buying a shiny new car. I chose to persue this hobby with disposible income, that overwise would of gone on cars, bikes, etc etc. Hopefully with wise sword purchases, i may see more of the money back, than otherwise depreciated on other items, il see, not too bothered in either case. The scales have to be balanced though, cant be going gung-ho with spending in all directions. There will come a time in the not to distant future where i will sell, to move on with the hobby, as others do or go full impulse power on a new bike, il see. I work hard, so balance with lifes entertainments.

[Loco Al]

I don't really see "gun nuts" being hostile to swords, most collectors/hobbyists of any sort will understand another's enthusiasm, even if they don't share a particular interest in that field.

 

I hope that I wasn't misunderstood. Please read more carefully. I was suggesting that if the nihonto collecting culture were to be intimately associated with the "gun nut" culture (as far as most people who are unfamiliar with nihonto collecting are concerned), then this would not necessarily be a good way to promote this hobby as an appreciation of the Japanese sword as an art form.

 

Not a bad thing if a "gun nut" wants to buy a sword, but bad if the general public were to immediately associate nihonto collecting with "gun nuts".

 

I was going to delete those photos of Matilda and the picture of William Burroughs which was painted by Sebastian Kruger. But they do help to make an immediate visual point. Or, I could have just written a full webpage and a half as a rebuttal to a post that I did not fully agree with, such that other members would have felt they were being sucked into a black hole attempting to speed read through all of it.

 

DanC, I couldn't agree with you more. But where art is concerned, there will always be investors. What would you call a nihonto dealer (or a dealer in paintings)? An altruist? They are "investors" primarily! There will always be a profit motive, except by most of those who are just collectors. I do not think that there are very many collectors who believe that nihonto are a good investment. It can not be simplified like that. Collectors do have the option of avoiding buying pieces that have been pushed up to ridiculous prices by speculators.

 

B.T.W. , Dan, I finally figured out what "FNG" stands for in your sig. If I am not mistaken, it is short for "f'ing new guy". A military term referring to someone just out of basic training or recently transferred to a new unit.

 

Alan

[Alex A]

Hi Alan, Matilda looks like she worries too much, maybe she should adopt the attitude of Oscar below....

[Jean]

[Kronos]

Nihonto is quite a terrible "investment". The definition of investment is "the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value".

 

Looking at this you won't generate interest such as when lending money as investment banks do, you won't gain an income such as buying to let real estate and historically Nihonto hasn't appreciated in value as other antiques such as chinese vases have. In fact if anything they've remained stagnant despite inflation and in terms of real money are worth less now than 15 years ago. Dealers are different in that even though they put their own money in initially, they don't sit on things in the hopes they appreciate. Simply they buy something they consider below market value and sell for market value or more with maybe a bit of creation of wealth mixed in by restoration of old rusted items they can get really cheap, put through the cheapest polish possible then sold on to maximize profit (Not that many dealers would do that and would prefer to put items through a good polish even if it cuts into their profit margin to restore any given sword to it's maximum potential).

 

The good thing is you won't lose much if anything when it comes to sell unlike cars and you'll get the enjoyment out of them while in your possession.

[Alex A]

Quite right James, Nihonto is a poor "investment". We buy simply because we enjoy it, although you may well loose big time, if you dont spend wisely.

[cabowen]

There's a difference between investing and speculating. Buying Japanese swords hoping to sell at a profit is speculation for most. Dealers are essentially speculators who buy low and hope to sell high over a short term. Investors are betting on appreciation in fundamental value typically over a longer term.

[DanC]

B.T.W. , Dan, I finally figured out what "FNG" stands for in your sig. If I am not mistaken, it is short for "f'ing new guy". A military term referring to someone just out of basic training or recently transferred to a new unit.

 

[Kronos]

There's a difference between investing and speculating. Buying Japanese swords hoping to sell at a profit is speculation for most. Dealers are essentially speculators who buy low and hope to sell high over a short term. Investors are betting on appreciation in fundamental value typically over a longer term.

 

Yes speculating, I knew I should of said that instead of going the long way round

[Randy McCall]

After a busy few weeks, this is the first chance I've had to reply to this excellent topic. As someone relatively new to the art of collecting myself, let me offer a few thoughts.

 

First, any path which brings a person to explore at the least the edges of nihonto appreciation is a good path. How they come to the hobby (avocation?) isn't really important: whether a person launches directly in sword collection via a lucky strike on Ebay; first studies martial arts before slowing gaining an appreciation for the sword; have a starting interest in Japanese culture or history; or, as one collector told me, started simply by watching chambara and reading fictional novels on feudal Japan, the point is they have arrived.

 

Making a new member of the community feel welcome is, of course, ultimately important; people become involved in groups out of enlightened self-interest... they want to both give and receive. NMB does an excellent job of this. For those lucky enough to have an established group in their city, the personal interaction and mentoring which takes place in that environment is extremely helpful. But no matter what group is joined, it's a fact that new people are occasionally going to ask dumb or obvious questions. It's part of the learning curve, if somewhat tiresome for the old hands who've heard the same question over-and-over from newbies. On the flip side, too strident a response to the same-old-questions drives people away... certainly if someone went to a local sword group meeting and asked a question which was answered with "Go read a book!", I think they'd likely shut up and leave quickly.

 

I wonder if creating a forum for Beginners, where they would be welcome to ask the dumb / basic questions and receive helpful feedback (either direct answers, or suggestions for book chapters etc.), might encourage tentative newcomers? Perhaps this could be set up as a special group, so those not wanting to take part in such discussions wouldn't be bothered?

 

Secondly, while handling swords is the best way of learning sword flaws and other details, we know many people simply don't have access to such collections. I've often wondered if there wasn't some way to help these people learn by experience. Well, I'm going to toss out a very odd suggestion, stolen from another organization: Many years back I was studying gemmology and the organization in question realized that many students wouldn't have access to precious stones they needed to gain the practical experience they needed. What they did was put together sample packs of gems, which would be lent to students. The student had to give a safety deposit on these sample packs, in the area of $2000 to $3000

 

Let's mix this with the fact that here at NMB, members have talked about how there are many, many poor quality swords on the market (rusty, many or fatal flaws, broken, etc.), suitable only for melting down, or perhaps keeping solely as historical curiosities; often these swords are mentioned as having one or two positive points, such as a good example of a type of nie, hamon, etc., but that's all.

 

Would it be possible for an organization (JSSUS?) to take some of the damaged / broken and otherwise useless blades, and create learning packs for sword flaws, hada types, hamon patterns, etc by sectioning out pieces of such damaged blades with the best examples? These could then be loaned out (via mail) to help people learn from real examples, with the student having to leave a safety deposit first.

 

Finally, I'd like to make a general offer to NMB, JSSUS and Canada, and any other group interested. For many years I ran a small Internet-based NGO working with governmental and non-governmental agencies and organizations assisting crime victims. One area I specialized in was knowledge curation and management, including the development of COPs... communities of practice (in essence, communities of professionals for the purpose of institutional knowledge/skill sharing-and-retention). If I can help by dusting off some of my old skills, I'd be glad to do so... just drop me a line; this is much too large a topic to go into in a post. A decent intro to COP concepts can be found here: http://net.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/nli0531.pdf

 

(Edited to clean up some errors and improve readability... it was very early here when I wrote this, after a very, very late night )

[Dr Fox]

A post I feel is definatly worth more than one reading.

[1tallsword]

you can always offer a pound of bacon with every new member :D people go crazy over bacon.... maybe start fryin bacon at meetings and shows.. the smell will get them through the doors...

[sohei]

In response to Randy’s letter, I often thought that physical examples of sword flaws would be useful. But looking for them, I found that they were way over priced and stopped looking some time ago. There are a few websites that have digital examples. I have also personally experienced that the ‘lend-loan’ libraries of sword clubs have pretty much faded away. I know that many of the board members of clubs have jobs, families, a life, etc and can’t devote every minute to the club. Many retired people develop health issues that make volunteering impractical. So I have given up on the buying physical examples, and the lend-loan aspects of the clubs. But; I think that the clubs should be in the business of promoting knowledge and on that note: the JSSUS has contracted Markus Sesko to translate an article on ‘The fascination of midareba’, by Hajime Zenzai from Ginza Choshuya, this article will allow us English speaking collectors an overview of the different approaches in midareba (the hamon) by individual smiths and schools. Hopefully this will appear in clear contrast, similar to the Higo tsuba edition, in a JSSUS edition next year and will add to our knowledge. I personally believe that translating Japanese sword knowledge into English will expand and improve our collecting base. On a side note, I know the JSSUS is looking into Darcy's recommendations. Thanks, Mike

[cabowen]

At past sword shows that I have been involved with, one of the most commented on exhibits was one that had a few blades with a wide variety of flaws which were circled in black marker and numbered. I made up an explanation sheet keyed to the numbers to give people an in hand example of many common flaws. Something like this could be done at all shows I would think....

 

10 years ago I begged the NTHK-NPO to put their "Token to Rekishi" journal on line in pdf form so they wouldn't have to ship it out every 2 months. Too radical an idea at the time I suppose...Perhaps I will bring it up again...I might also pursue the publishing of their oshigata collection on line in some form for reference as well....

[george trotter]

Hi Chris,

Putting the journal (or interesting snippets from it) on-line would certainly get the "message" around. I have no idea of the financial and copyright aspects of doing so, but if "the public" consistently came across scholarly knowledge and illustrations when doing searches online for "sword questions" then it might stimulate a genuine interest that translates to membership in NTHK-NPO (to get the whole journal) and enhances our field of collecting. A good idea IMHO.

Regards,