Casting vs Carving

[laowho]

Hello All,

 

I'm wondering how you can tell when/where, in later pieces especially, the casting/punching has ended and the carving has begun? I suppose I'm naive to hope that there is some convenient rule of thumb, rather than having to actually view the piece in person and identify chisel marks? I wasn't originally a fan of open work--tended to eschew these out of hand in fact--but am finding many such attractive lately. Good thing I suppose, or I'd be denying myself the majority of tsuba.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Doug,

My understanding that real tsuba weren't cast and if by punching you mean punched out of a factory prepared plate, that didn't happen either.

But others who know more than I may disagree.

Grey

[Brian]

No..agree with Grey.

Casting is usually identified visually through experience. Real and decent tsuba are not cast, they are carved.

You don't usually see carving marks either, you just identify them with experience and knowing what a good tsuba looks like. Like everything, it comes with time and experience. Most of us are still learning and hoping to get there.

 

Brian

[laowho]

Oh boy...

 

I assumed that Edo to Meji showed an increase in plate punch-outs and rough castings which were finished off with carving, and that the better carving was still a better piece. I'm sorry, its just hard to imagine so much of this being done through carving. I suppose parts were at least drilled out?

 

I'm putting together a build for a friend and have found some pieces that will work well for him, provided the quality is really there. And safer I understand if I stay with established reputables. Guess we'll be looking for tsuba books next, maybe at the upcoming Philly show. Thanks

[Kevin Adams]

I'm wondering how you can tell when/where, in later pieces especially, the casting/punching has ended and the carving has begun?

This is a curious notion - what led you to conclude that earlier pieces might have been cast? To my understanding, chiseling has been integral to the Japanese metalworking tradition almost from the beginning, it didn't just appear as a replacement for something else. Evidence of using punches to create textures and move metal is also present, ranging from early examples into the present day.

 

I suppose I'm naive to hope that there is some convenient rule of thumb, rather than having to actually view the piece in person and identify chisel marks?

You wouldn't always see marks on chisel work, so no.

 

I assumed that Edo to Meji showed an increase in plate punch-outs and rough castings which were finished off with carving, and that the better carving was still a better piece.

That's a very bold assumption. Consider the size of the inlays on tosogu - it would be a far more efficient use of time (as well as demonstrating greater sensitivity to the work) to simply cut out the piece needed, inlaying it, and carving it. Creating a model, creating a mould, casting, inlaying and refining the shape is a lot of unnecessary steps for the same (arguably inferior) result.

 

I suppose parts were at least drilled out?

Yes, although there is some speculation that early sukashi work was carved out with a chisel rather than pierced. I remember a few discussions here about it, but can't find them at the moment.

 

Buy lots of books (Grey can help you with that), look at lots of pieces (Philly will be good for that) and ask lots of questions.

[kaigunair]

perhaps what is sometimes termed "cast" is actually repoussé work. a very wise board member pointed me in this direction regarding a piece that I felt was suspect for what it was being represented as, but turns out to be a perfect example of repoussé work.

 

yamagane/suaka, as well as shakudo and possibly shibuichi, would take to repoussé work quite easily. Add a nice fukurin, and it would be hard to tell that the outer plates were attached to an inner core. If adhered together using pine resin, which can dry and crack over time, the rim of the such a tsuba would be susceptible to coming loose should the edge be bumped.

[laowho]

Yes,

 

Well Kevin, when I assume "I make an ass out of me and Uma Thurman." (Al Franken) I wouldn't consider it a bold assumption so much as a natural one, mistakenly predicated on erstwhile common mass-production techniques and the incredible number of tsuba produced. I'm not surprised at my assumption, just at my willingness to show my ignorance here. I'm normally very guarded/cautious when posting anything, but there's so much to learn in all of this that there's no avoiding asking the occasional stupid question. This is all very good to know and just adds another layer of respect and appreciation for the Japanese tradition of (insistence upon) craftsmanship.

 

Thank you all. We hope to see many of you at the Philly show.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I just received a package from Tsuruta-san, one which I've been waiting 7 long years for. I'm going to let my wife and son open it so that I can take it all in.

[bone]

It may be a silly question... But not really an invalid one. Yes making a mold is much more labor intensive still you don't have to use it just once. Having said that I don't for a moment believe that edo or earlier tsuba are cast. I just think that asking the question and stating assumptions are just part of the learning curve. And Kevin? I bow to your expertise. Honestly.

[Kevin Adams]

Doug, I didn't mean to come across as having a go at you, I just think we all need to be careful about making assumptions. I was genuinely curious why you thought the way you did, if a little direct in the asking.

 

Steve, far from it. I have a great teacher.

 

Junichi - interesting point about the relief work in sanmei tsuba being mistaken for a casting. I seem to recall a few discussions about that here. Clearly some searching and reading is in order this evening.

[Alex A]

Hi Doug, your likely to come across low end Late Edo/Meiji Sukashi tsuba that where cut from "stock" plate, i owned an example a while ago. Featureless flat steel with neat crisp edges. The one i owned had been mounted, so, someone must have considered it adequate at some point

[Rich S]

One way to tell with pretty good accuracy if a tsuba is cast, it to look for casting flanges on the inside of the sukashi, hitsu ana and nakago ana. While some cast tsuba have had the flanges filed off, many still have them and IMHO are a dead give away that a tsuba is cast. Cast tsuba commonly also have a grainy texture to the surface,but distinquishing that from good carving, nanako, etc. is sometimes difficulty. Also, though less accurate, cast tsuba don't tend to "ring" to the extent that carved tsuba do. Hold the tsuba lightly between you thumb and forefinger and lightly strike the tsuba with your thumbnail (opposite hand :-). Many carved tsuba will have a nice "ringing" sound while most cast one are pretty dead sounding. Not always a 100% technique, but nothing ever is. Just have to take the totality of the evidence to decide and of course seek counsel from others when possible.

Just some of my "tricks" that works for me pretty well.Others may have other methods and may even disagree with mine. As with all things Nihonto, experience and seeing lots of good examples and comparing them to poor ones is the best learning.

Rich S

[kusunokimasahige]

To illustrate what Richard Stein writes, and that some fake tsuba can have a ring to them, the following :

 

Fake :

 

 

 

Real :

 

 

KM

 

(sorry for the static, my mic is rather old, but you will get the drift.)

[laowho]

Hi Kevin, Everyone,

 

The reason for my assumptive question was that, at some point, casting did become the norm (though maybe not in Japan, or maybe during Meji?), and it seemed a natural progression, from carving to casting, to have elements of both during these transition times. Moreover, and especially for open work, if 75% of the work can be done with casting and the remaining 25% by hand, then much can be saved, much more produced, and done well enough might even hide any evidence of casting to all but the most well-informed. But no worries, Kevin...sounds like my reply has prompted sympathetic responses (rather the opposite of my intentions) as well as some good information, and not the least from you.

 

On another note, our son was floored when he opened Tsuruta-san's box. We recently bought him a decent production blade for tameshigiri, and have been grateful that this has continued to hold his attention (16-year-old and medicated for ADHD). But we weren't prepared for his response to a genuine katana, to see him transfixed on it and absorb some of it for half an hour. We even went over some of the things going on in it--he found the kinsuji even before I could show it to him--and he kept asking questions after we put it up on the stand.

 

And yes Bone, the balance is completely different. Even my Bugei Bamboo feels like a club now. This blade is massive, and is my first bo-hi, but it feels like it wants to fly. And here's the weird part to which some of you may roll your eyes, but when I sat there engaging it, I swear it moved, and not just once. Every time I shook my head and refocused, it invariably moved.

[Rich S]

Doug -

 

I understand what you mean. Back when I was engaged in iaido, one of the best moments of my life came after hours of practice one day when I did a kata, it just did itself. No mind, no thought, just the sword (my trusty Teruhide in civilian mounts) and I were one for a brief moment in time (or no-time as the case may be). Swords have a life of their own. Yes, I know I'm being anthropomorphic, but many of you will know what I mean.

Rich S

[laowho]

Maybe some day for me, Dr. Stein, though I've experienced this in my Tai Chi forms. But as for the anthropomorphizing, I think that this can hardly be the case insomuch as these were things that were not sought...the afterthought or analysis, sure, but not that which prompted these. "It is not for swords or for gear, but for the Thing."

[Tiaan Burger]

Many carved tsuba will have a nice "ringing" sound while most cast one are pretty dead sounding. Not always a 100% technique, but nothing ever is. Just have to take the totality of the evidence to decide and of course seek counsel from others when possible.

Just some of my "tricks" that works for me pretty well.Others may have other methods and may even disagree with mine. As with all things Nihonto, experience and seeing lots of good examples and comparing them to poor ones is the best learning.

Rich S

 

A note of caution: A welding flaw in a folded / layered tsuba will make it sound "dead". Do the tapping on different areas, if it rings in spots, and not in others, then it might be a welding flaw in the metal.

I recently made a tsuba blank, using six layers of wrought iron. One side showed a welding flaw, and it does not ring when tapped there, but it rings clearly when tapped in other places.

 

Tiaan

[Guido]

Personally, I prefer to draw a circle of salt around the tsuba and have a white goat walk over it. If the salt sticks to the hoofes, the tsuba is cast. A metallurgist friend of mine - with whom I discussed the topic at length - agreed that this will provide the same (or even better) results in judging the composition of a tsuba than tapping it and listening to the sound it produces.

[MauroP]

I do prefer ars aruspicina in judging tsuba, nonetheless I find Guido's approach a perfectly legitimate practice...

Bye, Mauro

[kusunokimasahige]

Guido and Mauro, great advice.

 

Just one word of caution. Never kick your chickens from the boat into the sea.

 

(Claudius Pulcher learned this the hard way)

 

KM

[Brian]

Yes, most tsuba and metal experts say the "ringing" test is useless. But perhaps that is more the answer to those who say you can tell the hardness and/or quality of the iron.

Casting is identified by the surface finish, flashings, presence of "cast-in" features like mei or sekigane..etc etc.

You learn to identify them over time. Don't rely too much on tests.

 

Brian

[TosoguCz]

But perhaps that is more the answer to those who say you can tell the hardness and/or quality of the iron.

According my experience, a mild steel tsuba can ring as good as folded steel, just in different tonality.

[Kevin Adams]

According my experience, a mild steel tsuba can ring as good as folded steel, just in different tonality.

Same here. I've often wondered what physical data there is to back up the "ring test", since it seems prevalent not just in dialogue about sword fittings but in general metallurgical practice...

[Darcy]

Doug -

 

I understand what you mean. Back when I was engaged in iaido, one of the best moments of my life came after hours of practice one day when I did a kata, it just did itself. No mind, no thought, just the sword (my trusty Teruhide in civilian mounts) and I were one for a brief moment in time (or no-time as the case may be). Swords have a life of their own. Yes, I know I'm being anthropomorphic, but many of you will know what I mean.

Rich S

 

It's Flow.

 

Nakamura and Csíkszentmihályi identify the following six factors as encompassing an experience of flow.

 

intense and focused concentration on the present moment

merging of action and awareness

a loss of reflective self-consciousness

a sense of personal control or agency over the situation or activity

a distortion of temporal experience, one's subjective experience of time is altered

experience of the activity as intrinsically rewarding, also referred to as autotelic experience

 

Those aspects can appear independently of each other, but only in combination do they constitute a so-called flow experience.

 

Sounds like it describes your experience.

 

I experienced it in Aikido Randori, and I think if the teacher is organizing it right they are deliberately trying to evoke this from you. In contrast, I do not experience this with photography. Photography for me is a struggle and a battle. Writing software is an experience of Flow, especially if not working with Apple's kits.

 

In your case the sword is the point of focus and an extension of yourself and you lose the border between the two most likely. Same for me with the computer programming, the interface vanishes between myself and the machine and the closest thing I can compare it to is that of a wizard summoning a very minor demon from the void.

 

Flow, also known as Zone, is the mental state of operation in which a person performing an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and enjoyment in the process of the activity. In essence, flow is characterized by complete absorption in what one does. Proposed by Mihály Csíkszentmihályi, this positive psychology concept has been widely referenced across a variety of fields.

 

According to Csikszentmihalyi, flow is completely focused motivation. It is a single-minded immersion and represents perhaps the ultimate experience in harnessing the emotions in the service of performing and learning. In flow, the emotions are not just contained and channeled, but positive, energized, and aligned with the task at hand. The hallmark of flow is a feeling of spontaneous joy, even rapture, while performing a task[2] although flow is also described (below) as a deep focus on nothing but the activity – not even oneself or one's emotions.

 

You need a few things to enter that state: high enough skill in the area which you are practicing. The ability to focus your mind and enter that zone where the rest of the world steps back a few steps and drops out. The excellent feeling comes with executing the task well and fuels the experience.

 

So you can really imagine this aligns very well with swordsmanship, and as well all of the arts around sword manufacture.

[Mantis dude]

Just going back to casting vs. carving, I think you have to appreciate the Japanese culture. I am no expert in the culture but to this day the artistic creation is highly valued. As a society, they appreciated the skill of carving and were probably not as concerned with mass production (of course to a point but these aren't toyotas). Even mass produced items could be done by some decent copiers. Just from my readings and hearing things over time, I believe the Japanese society valued the attention to detail and dedicated work to perfecting their craft much more than pumping out volume. I just watched a documentary called Jiro makes sushi (not sure of exact title), basically the story of a man who dedicated his life to perfecting sushi. His place only seats 10 people and is in the subway- he is also the oldest man to receive a Michelin star. His sushi isn't fancy, yet there are layers to how he plans, prepares, and serves his sushi. He dedicated his life to that one thing and that idea carries over into many areas in the Japanese culture. Something I think we as westerners always forget (I am no different)- we must think like Japanese to fully understand how they operated and we make the mistake of applying our mentality/sentiments to a culture that can be very different. I hope you get the idea of what I am trying to say. You damn gaijin!!

[b.hennick]

Ken +1

[cabowen]

"Jiro Dreams of Sushi"....should be required viewing for all trying to gain a deeper understanding of the shokunin spirit....

[kusunokimasahige]

Could not agree more Chris !

 

Great film and profoud understanding.

[IanB]

Doug, Your question about the casting of tsuba is interesting and raises many questions. Clearly different types of tsuba involved different production techniques. We know exactly how many soft metal tsuba were made as Ford has filmed the process in detail, including the casting of a raw billet, hammering to thickness and inlaying large pieces of the base metal to achieve raised areas. When it comes to iron tsuba, we are talking a wholly different tradition. Early iron tsuba with a few simple piercing would almost certainly involve forging the basic plate, drilling holes where the piercing was to be and refining their shape with chisels, scrapers and possibly files, any texturing of the plate being done with punches. All very straight forward and using techniques we know the Japanese used.

Problems arise when we extend these processes to more elaborate sukashi work. It is one thing chiseling out 3 or 4 shapes from a thin plate, but another when the design calls for a dozen or more openings, often with only thin divisions between them, in a plate of some thickness. I just pulled up an image of a Choshu tsuba by Yoshitsuke depicting Autumn grasses and there are there are 23 'holes' if the nakago ana and the two hitsu ana are included. Looking at it another way, this example is more hole than tsuba. Modern tsuba makers quite happily drill little holes and use a piercing saw to do a task like this, but nobody has ever demonstrated that such saws existed in the past. The nearest equivalent are the short narrow cuts in ito sukashi work. The fact that these cuts were the characteristic of the group's work suggests they were special and their makers were proud of being able to do them. Had it been a common technique used by most tsubashi making sukashi tsuba, they would have had no relevance. So we are back to drills and chisels and yes, the sukashi tsuba I mention above could have been made the that way but what a monumental task. Much simpler to carve it out of wood, with all the elements of the design left rather thick, make a simple two piece mould out of clay and make a basic shape in cast iron. The product would have flash and mould lines, but if a tsubashi can remove chisel marks with his scrapers, he can remove these as well - refining the over sized elements of the design in the process. This refining of the casting could be done to the iron as cast but it would be more sensible to decarburise the metal first - and that was a process that had been known for centuries. The Chinese were producing cast iron over 2000 years ago and were producing plates of the stuff that they then decarburised into a malleable metal. They made many of their tools by casting and decarburising them, so why shouldn't the Japanese? We know that the market is awash with cast tsuba, but many of these are cheap nasty copies made for the toursist trade in the 19th century. Why bother flattening off the seppadai or removing traces of flash and moulding marks when the buyers of these gems wouldn't know a real tsuba from a drain cover. There was a thread about a Soten tsuba a while ago where the faces of the samurai were blank flats. They were cast that way and lumps of copper or silver were normally soldered on later - how else could you retain the added face when there is no iron surrounding it to hold it in place? The Mantis Dude is correct in that Japanese craftsmen took immense pride in their work, but they were not going to go out of their way to make life harder for themselves, nor were they above using techniques that gave them a living. I have seen plenty of 'gold' inlay with the outer surface worn off revealing copper underneath. Why inlay a great blob of gold when you can cover a piece of shaped copper with gold foil and inlay that. No, I maintain many of these guys had a living to make and the more they sold the better they ate. I would remind you of the famous quote about putting the tsuba in a rice mortar, giving them a pounding, then choosing the ones that have not broken. How in the name of goodness is bashing forged plates with a wooden pestle going to break them? They might bend but not break. No, this is a way of detecting tsuba that have not been satisfactorily decarburised and are still essentially cast iron.

Ian Bottomley

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Ian,

When I think of cast iron I think of a brittle material, one that never could hold up intact if pierced with many sukashi. Educate me please.

Grey

[cabowen]

In a word, decarburization. Actually, it would have to be some serious decarburization I think....I wonder if the thickness of a tsuba plate would make that practical, or even possible...