fake nbthk papers...

[PNSSHOGUN]

I agree with Raymond on keeping the papers for provenance or history, especially if it has been resubmitted for current papers.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 This has been an interesting thread indeed and it is obvious that once the whiff of bad green papers got into the air the consequential resubmission process of green papered swords year by year would increase the probability of those remaining, and not having been resubmitted, being wrong. Unless I missed it what is unknown is what proportion of green papers were ever wrong? For example for the many collectors outside Japan who have green papers, what is the risk/reward of the lengthy and round about process of sending those blades to Japan as resubmissions? The entire year by year agony which has portrayed those so papered as bad has of course skewed, and not necessarily objectively, that relation towards reward, but with all the attendant costs which may have been unwarranted in the first place. Is there any data on the proportion of bad papers at the out set? The only thing I recall seeing about the 1981 scandal related to Tokubetsu Kicho and Koshu Tokubetsu fakes is found in the January, February, March and July 1986 issues of the Newsletter of the Japanese Sword Club of Southern California, which illustrate several dozen examples and points to but does not name a particular faker in the Fukuoka area of Kyushu. Most of the blades were  gendaito it seems and if only one culprit was involved in doing the counterfeits the total output could not have been very large. Does anyone know the actual numbers that were the basis of the allegations at that time?

 Arnold F.

[Isshu]

Hi All,

This has been an interesting discussion with strong for and against opinions and each to make up there own minds. However, there has been little comment as to the validity of the NTHK-NPO certificates. As this type of certificate is readily available in the USA due to the ability of many Shinsa it appears to be quite popular. Unfortunately other countries don't have the numbers or financial backing to hold such regular events. This makes it difficult for collectors in countries which don't have Shinsa to upgrade their old or not as yet papered items. So we have to consider the costs to send to Japan- postage, middle man agents fees, Shinsa fees, registration fees etc. to possibly upgrade the current "old papers". Not everyone can afford this luxury unless comfortably well off or has a commercial interest.

 

I have been told and open to correction but all dealers in Japan now only obtain NBTHK certificates. This seems to me that a monopoly is been created and as with any monopoly, in any field or business can led to it's own problems as with the criminal activities with the green papers. I only comment because what if the HBTHK one day decides that NTHK-NPO certificates are not up to a standard or unreliable or...???. I have read on this board many times that it is the blade not the papers but I think we all know that papers are an important consideration when purchasing a sword when someone (like me) has only average knowledge and little or no Japanese.

 

So I am interested in comments from the strong supports of the NBTHK as to the "strenght" of the alternative certificates to the NBTHK.  Are they worth the effort to wait for that rare Shinsa event or send to Japan. Thanks.

 

John C.

[paulb]

John

It is a question that has caused much, often heated debate. If you visit the DTI in Japan the only papers in evidence are from the NBTHK. Whether offical policy or something that has just evolved over time  most if not all of the major auction houses appear only to recognise NBTHK papers.

In the 1970s and 80s the NTHK  were held in very high regard, whether equal to the NBTHK I don't know but were much respected. The split in to two groups and the subsequent bad feeling did little to enhance their reputation at that time. However the quality and experience of the judging panels of each faction is extremely high.

I think the question has really arisen since the prevalence of overseas events taken on by both NTHK groups and there have often been questions about some of the attributions made. There are a number of possible reasons for this.

First and foremost I think the quality and condition of what is being presented to them is a lot more variable than they would see in Japan. From my own limited experience taking part in these events the majority of blades were mumei and not in particularly good polish. (Those wanting a paper realised very early that if they submitted unsigned blades they would get something whereas signed blades had the possibility of being rejected as gimei)

 

The time available for assessment was less that for home Shinsa's in Japan.

 

Finally I think the expectation from people submitting was in some cases unrealistic and too high. As a result they did not get the result they wanted and based on Human nature it is easier to question the appraisal and blame the competence of the judge than to believe ones own fallibility.

 

Based on the above I think the value of NTHK papers (both groups) has declined and at present are less valued than the NBTHK

Having said that I regard the opinion of NTHK judges as valuable. As said the judges are extremely experienced and have excellent reputations. While not as commercially useful they do offer benefit when trying to work out what is in front of you. Are they wrong sometimes? Yes as we all are.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Speaking of papers, this evening up pops an Aoi offering, AS17125, a Kashu ju Sadayuki with an NTHK (NPO) paper, dated Heisei 26 (2014), about which Aoi raises some doubt. I believe that was the US shinsa that Miyano sensei was unable to participate in on account of health. It is not particularly unusual for Aoi to demur on an attribution, but it more unusual to see any paper other than an NBTHK paper on a Japanese site. I agree with Paul that during the days of the "unified" NTHK the papers of the late Yoshikawa Koen were highly respected in the West, and he was a sword scholar in his own right.

 Arnold F.

[Oshy]

Is this a fake NBTHK?

 

[Grey Doffin]

This is the old style of paper from the NBTHK: Kicho, dated 1977.  A few years later they quit Kicho and moved to Hozon.

Grey

[Oshy]

Ok, off ebay so wasnt sure, thanks Grey