Rai Kuniyuki

[Jean]

On Aoi Art :

 

http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2014/14370-3.jpg

 

Very Interesting piece because it is signed, achieved TH for this reason, the jigane is fantastic when it is not "Rai". The price is very reasonable taking into account the Koshirae is included with a futatokoro mono.

[jlawson]

Yes very interesting. I also find it amazing that the Rai jigane is associated with weak core steel showing. I have heard often that this is the Rai jigane when it is just ground down from many years of polishing etc. I have seen many Juyo and Tokubetsu Juyo that have spectacular jigane and absolutely no weakness. It seems that in the general collecting world when we discuss the "rai jigane" we are talking about a rai sword that has been over polished etc. Seeing the healthy versions of these swords absolutely destroys that myth and the rai jigane takes on a whole new meaning.

[paulb]

Hi James

I think the composition of Rai hada has long been discussed and often argued about. the issue has also been confused because core steel seen in Hizen blades has been described as an attempt to copy old Yamashiro steel. I have spent a lot of time reading up on this not least because I am a lover of Yamashiro work and Hizen swords. My opinion (at the moment) is as follows

1. I dont think Rai hada is core steel or there as a result of over polishing. I think it shows as areas of clear dark steel within the jigane. Core steel tends to look course and open Rai hada doesnt. It looks similar to the dark patches one sees on old Aoe work, again not core steel but an integral part of the jigane

2. I think patches of core steel on Hizen blades are a result of them preserving their very expensivve skin steel and as a result the outer layers were very thin. The suggestion that this was an attempt to make the swords look like aged Koto is, I think, a bit of opportunisitc marketing.

To add to the above there are older Yamashiro works and indeed early Bizen and other pieces that are believed to be single piece construction, therefore have no core steel however they do exhibit something similar to Rai hada.

What I do agree with is just as a personal choice I much prefer blades that dont include rai hada (Rai) Fish belly hada (Ko-Aoe) or Enju hada (like Rai hada but in an Enju blade!!) I think this is why a prefer Chu-Aoe to Ko-Aoe work and smiths like Rai Kunimitsu where the examples I have seen have far less Rai hada than some of his predecessors.

[jlawson]

One correction there , I should have said weakness in the hada vs just over polishing etc.

[Jean]

Apart the "Rai jigane" this blade has seen a lot of polishes, there are a lot of kitae ware and the boshi runs thin.

[paulb]

I agree Jean

I was lucky enough to see another Rai Kuniyuki recently (the one that was on Darcy's site) The big difference of course is that one was O-suriage and mumei, however the shape and condition were far better (in my opinion) it was all together a much more attractive work.

Having said that if someone was to offer to buy this for me I wouldnt say no

[Jean]

Hi Paul,

 

Were the blade in shirasaya and O suriage, it would be worth around 1M¥. It means that koshirae +mei = 3,9 M¥. At max the koshirae is worth 0,9 M¥. The mei (authograph) is worth 3M¥ :D

[Darcy]

If anyone is selling mumei katana length Rai Kuniyuki @ 1M yen, please contact me. I am buying haha. I don't think you will see too many of those Jean, maybe if this were cut to wakizashi length and in this condition.

 

I think this one should pass Juyo unless there is a critical problem with the hamon that has been dressed up by the polisher. It would have to be examined closely. Juyo at the moment is also "very very difficult" and extremely unpredictable. So there have been good blades like this that look to pass the Juyo threshold that have come into the market without Juyo papers over the last couple of years.

 

Just needs to be closely inspected to be sure there is no polisher artistry happening.

 

As for Rai hada, I think this is something that begins after Rai Kunitoshi changes the style from this older style so I don't expect to see it so much in Rai Kuniyuki. I think this is just kitae ware that could not be seen originally.

 

There is a departure between western collectors and Japanese collectors in terms of how much flaws affect them on older blades.

 

Western collectors will get turned off pretty rapidly by flaws and will give feedback that they devalue the blade a lot to the point where they are usually uninterested in purchasing. Then if presented the 1 out of 100 that is flawless and they will react wow, that one is way too expensive every other one I've seen is a lot cheaper!

 

We do go to western museums all the time and see things like statues with their heads and arms knocked off and they are priceless artworks... so I think it is easy to be spoiled by the general state of preservation of swords, where we think of a 400 year old Hizen blade as "new" and expect it to be in the same condition as a car that has just been driven off the lot in 2014 (and better condition than a 5 year old used car, which has scratches, nicks dings and dents from its "heavy use!")

 

Japanese (and western) collectors with some experience will give more room for the older blades to have condition issues. It's fair in general due to their rarity and you will see this forgiveness at Juyo shinsa as with the older blades even those that have fatal flaws will get a paper lower than Juyo. The most basic form of forgiveness is that o-suriage mumei blades of Muromachi and younger will not get Juyo papers (I hesitate to make the sweeping claim but in this case I think it is one of their published requirements).

 

I had been told before that a lot of Japanese dealers would not bother trying to level up the knowledge of someone complaining about flawed work, but would just steer them to newer inventory that was flawless including gendaito. Eventually they'd figure it out on their own or just be a happy collector of shinshinto and gendaito. Either way it works out ok for the dealer since they have the inventory and no fuss.

 

Lauren Bacall died yesterday, and she is actually someone that I've used when talking about the old blades. She was 89 and was still beautiful. To someone who didn't know her from film they might look at her and see just another old lady. To a photographer you could look at her and see her eyes and bearing and bone structure and you can still see the gorgeous young woman she used to be. It can be verified by looking at the the old film, and I think when the experienced old time collector picks up one of the ancient blades with condition issues there is a superposition of the two states that goes on in their mind like seeing the face of Lauren Bacall. They see it how it is and also how it used to be and the appreciation of the sword is affected by both.

 

Some swords were just never great and their condition issues cause them to fall further. But a sword that was once great always remains great, the condition issues are a shame and place it behind similar swords that do not have the condition issues but all of the greatness is still there for the viewer.

 

The same thing should happen when one would see a painting by Da Vinci that is faded and obscured by time. The greatness is still there, we can wish that the condition did not fade but it can't be discounted because of this.

 

And that is why we have the old Greek and Roman statues in the museums still in spite of the broken of heads, noses, arms and feet. We have to appreciate what is left and use the imagination to fill in the rest. Again we are in the position of swords sometimes to stumble into that perfect specimen. Unlike other arts perfection can be achieved in this market for double a standard piece or four or five times a problematic piece so we are in general pretty lucky with what we can obtain.

 

My feeling is that someone who can own this Rai Kuniyuki from Aoi will be a privileged collector. It is flawed and short and was made as a kodachi and the boshi is thin, etc., but it still is what it is. 800 year old artifact by one of the true masters.

 

Just my thoughts. I am of course biased towards these old things.

[Jean]

Darcy,

 

From memory, there was one for sale on e-sword.jp (TH) website 6/8 months ago for about that price 1/1,2 M€. Two years ago, on Aoi Art, a TH Kuniyuki blade (katana size)with a ware on the kissaki was sold for around (1,2 M¥), a Rai Kunitoshi wakizashi made from a broken signed tachi sold for less than 2M¥ a few years ago (blade has been discussed here).

[Darcy]

Well, still no katana at 1M yen and 2M yen for a wakizashi that is Tokubetsu Hozon is feasible. Was it gakumei?

 

e-sword one photos are still online. Hard to determine the condition from their photos as the hamon looks very dull. 63.4cm and $18,500 according to what Curran said. Had fittings but he called them crap heh.

 

If you saved any photos of the others, please email as I'd like to have a look.

 

I think though the e-sword one confirms what I've said above. I am a buyer at 1M yen if you find any katana there let me know . But I think that any that would get that low would be the type to have such major issues that the sword would not be redeemable and it is also hard to imagine it papering then, as condition would have to be very bad.

[paulb]

I think this discussion confirms a point often made here but equally often forgotten. There is no fixed price for any given maker. price is governed by quality, condition and rarity. If there is a work by a top rated smith and in my book Kuniyuki is certainly that, for a low price then it will either be because the owner doesn't know what it is or it has issues. When it appears on a Japanese dealers website then the latter would seem to be the most likely.

I suffer from a a disruptive condition which I describe as a greed gene. I see something that looks too good to be true and I seem to switch off logic and ability to analyse what I am looking at. This usually results in me buying something I shouldnt have. I am thinking of starting a new collection based on "I should have known better" !!

Basic rule good quality work from highly rate smiths are expensive. However they are also worth the effort and sacrifice to pursue because they stand head and shoulders above much else.

When paying less than what might be considered the going rate then expect there to be issues with condition. This doesn't make the piece a bad buy but it also isn't necessarily a bargain.

From what I can see on this one I think much of the value is based on the fact it is signed. The actual condition of the sword looks as though it has had a life in its 700 year history. The buyer must decide whether owning the mei (and a decent koshirae) enables you to overlook the issues. As said before given the choice I would much rather have gone for the mumei example I saw a few weeks ago as the condition of the blade was much better.

[Gakusee]

Darcy,

 

Could you please elaborate on what you mentioned: "Juyo at the moment is also 'very very difficult' and extremely unpredictable. So there have been good blades like this that look to pass the Juyo threshold that have come into the market without Juyo papers over the last couple of years".

 

I have heard similar statements from others but conflicting and contradictory explanations or guidance as to why, and how to discriminate when submitting to Juyo shinsa.

 

Many thanks for your views.

 

Michael

[cabowen]

There is no fixed price for any given maker. price is governed by quality, condition and rarity..

 

Further thoughts on this topic....

 

I have found that it is difficult to even determine a general pricing structure as factors that can determine price vary, for example, with the period of the blade, the value an individual collector places on various factors, etc.

 

If one wishes to know how the Japanese value blades, simply look at the NBTHK standards for kantei-sho. In Japan, most collectors place the most importance on the maker's name/reputation. Japan is notoriously brand conscious.

 

While in absolute terms, condition can be said to be the most important factor, for blades that aren't yet relics, condition plays an increasingly important secondary consideration, the younger the blade. As you are well aware, flaws and tiredness often seen in older blades are accepted by many as they usually come with the territory and are almost expected. Those who are more condition conscious usually go for newer blades. It can be seen in the artifact vs art collector paradigm. Artifact collectors seem to not mind the damage associated with age, rather, it as almost part of the attraction. To others, these signs of age are a distraction-detraction. This is not to say that those who appreciate the artistic qualities do not find art in koto masterpieces. Myself, I love nothing better than a National Treasure koto blade, and even like lesser rated masterpieces by the famous smiths of old. However, I would rather see these in museums where they can be enjoyed by all and protected, rather than in the hands of private individuals where bad things can happen to them. Of course, that is simply a personal perspective.

 

Rarity is hard to factor in. For example, the famous shinto smith Sukehiro is known to have made over 1600 blades, thus his work is much more common than other famous smiths of the period, yet one doesn't really see any sort of devaluation in his work in comparison to other top smiths with a smaller body of work. There are many smiths whose work is very rare but they are unknown, and despite being skilled, they are undervalued in comparison to known smiths of seemingly equal skills. On the other hand, if you had the only known signed tanto, say, by a famous smith, it would undoubtedly be marketed as rare and the price would reflect this....It seems to me though that it is also a secondary factor because if the smith was not famous, it would be of little comparable interest.

 

Surely quality, condition, and rarity are all ingredients that factor into pricing but the hows and whys are very complex and the relative importance of each varies across several other factors.

[paulb]

However, I would rather see these in museums where they can be enjoyed by all and protected, rather than in the hands of private individuals where bad things can happen to them. Of course, that is simply a personal perspective.

 

Hi Chris,

To play devils advocate a little I have no argument against the concept that fine art of any form should be protected and made available to all within museums. Regrettably the reality is that most museums show about 5-15% of their collections, they simply do not have the exhibition space or resources available to show more. Also the belief that swords might be better protected in museums than in the hands of private collectors has proven to be wrong. stories of neglect and mishandling within establishments abound and to be honest it is unlikely that a curators general knowledge will compare to that of a specialist collector. I fully accept that private collectors can be equally guilty of mishandling and neglect but I tend to think if you have made a major personal investment in something you are more likely to take care of it

Many museums would say that it is due to the private collectors that so many fine swords have survived. When the UK sword ban threat loomed over us a letter to the home office from Tanobe-san who was a director of the NBTHK at the time confirmed this view.

 

Sorry I think we may be deviating off topic a bit but I think the discussion still relevant.

[cabowen]

However, I would rather see these in museums where they can be enjoyed by all and protected, rather than in the hands of private individuals where bad things can happen to them. Of course, that is simply a personal perspective.

 

Hi Chris,

To play devils advocate a little I have no argument against the concept that fine art of any form should be protected and made available to all within museums. Regrettably the reality is that most museums show about 5-15% of their collections, they simply do not have the exhibition space or resources available to show more. Also the belief that swords might be better protected in museums than in the hands of private collectors has proven to be wrong. stories of neglect and mishandling within establishments abound and to be honest it is unlikely that a curators general knowledge will compare to that of a specialist collector

 

 

All true Paul...But I guess it all depends on the museum ...one needs to choose well...I can name at least half a dozen in Japan and one or two in the US that I would be comfortable with....

 

One would like to think that private collectors would guard their investment and do the right thing, but it isn't always the case. Never mind what can happen when that collector passes away....

 

Thanks for your considered reply.

[Darcy]

The name in kantei is also a quality rating.

 

Certain makers have certain reputations for quality.

 

For instance, if you have a blade that looks somewhat like Norishige but the skill level is not high enough it will not receive a kantei to Norishige. So a kantei of Norishige is a little Juyo rating of its own. It is also very likely to pass Juyo because it has the quality to pass already as Norishige. People miss out then when they just get involved in what level a sword passed as, because who the sword passed as is much more important.

 

Same goes for things like paintings. In order for an unsigned work to be attributed to Van Gogh or Rembrandt, it has to demonstrate the correct degree of technical and artistic merit. If it does not have the same level of skill as a grand master painting, then it won't be attributed to a grand master. And so go swords too.

 

Certainly these things can be considered brand names. They deliver in the same way though, if you encounter a hand made Audemars Piguet watch, and it carries this brand, that brand represents a certain degree of quality and manufacture. So it is not a false pursuit to be interested in a good brand.

 

It also does not rule out that an inferior brand may occasionally manufacture something excellent. Hyundai started with a very weak brand image and elevated it by consistently delivering over their reputation. It is fair then to consider that a high value underrated brand. We have the same things in swords. I think Echizen Yasutsugu rated at Jo-jo saku for instance is one of the very best Shinto smiths. While I have been almost uniformly disappointed by Kotetsu and Kiyomaro with only the rare exception being remarkable to me, the reverse has happened for Echizen Yasutsugu. Though he is still highly rated I don't see why he is not top rated. I disagree with it and there are a few others that I think one can reasonably disagree with. Fujishiro did not see all the swords and had to judge based on what he had seen.

 

Like with brands I also agree that some are going to be overrated. To me those are two that I just named. And there is indeed a strong pursuit of those brands in Japan that drives their prices up to unreasonable amounts in comparison with similar quality.

 

So I would agree that brand consciousness in terms of sword manufacture drives prices and this carries all over the world and has certainly done so for centuries. Sukesada, Hizen, Rai, these are examples of famous brand names of their times that were wildly successful. So successful that they carry on today.

 

I just want to temper the thought because there is a chicken and the egg thing happening here. Brands became successful in general because of some kind of quality. So to pursue the brand you are pursuing that reputation. In the case of Rai they are elegant and beautiful, Hizen the same plus we know them to be highly functional. Sukesada is a successful brand probably due to price/performance in volume buys. Your dollar buys you a lot of functional weapons that cut well enough, don't bend and don't break. The Kotetsu brand was made on a reputation for cutting ability and the Kiyomaro brand was built on a combination of skill when he felt like displaying it and the self-tormented artist who killed himself young. Kiyondo's brand also gains in the idea of him being a faithful student who satisfied his master's obligations. These various ideas that are associated with the brand elevate them in value past the pure functionality.

 

A Timex watch will tell the time just as well as an Audemars Piguet. If you melt down the parts of an Audemars Piguet the value of them by weight is not so high. There is more to the value of an item than the pure functionality, or the pure cost of materials at the end of the day.

 

It's very difficult to build a successful brand if there is nothing that separates you from your peers. The role of marketing people is to try to lie, cheat and steal their way to success and this can compensate for shortfalls but ultimately your brand, which is your reputation and the idea you evoke in people's minds, rides on the strength of your product.

 

Lastly a sword for instance that looks almost the same but in one case is made by a koto smith and one by a shinshinto smith, two other things are at play. One is that the buyer may believe (probably fairly) that there is something different underneath the skin. Koto blades were surely made to fight and it is not clear how many Shinshinto blades were put to the test. This causes a value disparity and a bonus to any "brand" from the koto period. And secondly when you say this sword for instance is made by Ichimonji and this one is made by Sa Yukihide, you are invoking two very high quality brands, but you are also placing them in time periods.

 

One of my friends who is a collector that has taught me a lot over the years told me, "I like old things." So what could be seen as a pursuit of famous brands of the koto period by one set of perceptions, also misses out that to say Ichimonji is to say 1200s to 1300s, an artifact of a lost time. To say Sa Yukihide is to say an antique from a time we can still imagine. They are evocative of very different things and some people will just not want Shinshinto because it is not a time machine that sends them back to a long forgotten era.

 

The same way now we can look at the art made by a modern swordsmith and appreciate it, with materials science, machines, computers and so forth it is not a miracle that they could do what they do. Go back 1,000 years with the level of technology these guys were dealing with and see what they made with their hands and it is mind boggling. So to say Gojo is to say holy crap, this is magic. To say Gassan is to say, wow, now that is real skill. Magic is hard to understand how it can even happen. Skill we can appreciate. They are on different levels.

[Darcy]

About Juyo being hard and unpredictable, it is at the best of times an opaque process. There are however a good number of very strong candidates queued up and competition is hard and will remain hard for the next several years.

 

Some of the items that went through Tokuju last shinsa made me (and others) scratch our heads. At least one blade that I am aware of (and I have zero involvement in) that I felt would have been in the top five or six of the Tokuju was not accepted.

 

When you ask around and try to get it figured out there is a fair amount of head shaking and "Juyo is very hard" or "Tokuju is very hard."

 

Ultimately every item needs to be looked at and considered for what it is when evaluating it with these papers as a guideline. The blade I mention above will be sold one day well into six figures and deserves it. Blades that are worthy and will eventually go are hitting the market with less than maxed out papers. In past years dealers would hold them and submit them until they max out then pass them on and pretty much need to do this to maintain cash flow. Overall the net benefit is to the collector because even if the blade is clearly top level quality unless it carries the top level paper that will slice a bit of the price off the top. The rest of the price will carry on the qualities of the sword. So one can buy the same blade for a bit less because the dealer did not max out the paper, and does not want to try for 2-4 years to get it through but instead will take the sale now.

 

It's just up to the collector to be able to determine what the qualities are of the items in question without benefit of the level of paper holding their hand through the process. The papers are just a guideline anyway, I've written here before that there is not a lot of equivalency between two blades because they both hold the same paper and there are no price categories based on the paper. Just the individual item will upgrade its own price if it is honored with higher and higher level papers. The most expensive sword that I had a direct opportunity on was Hozon and $500,000 and the cheapest Tokubetsu Juyo sword I've seen was about $70k. The item itself, condition and history, who made it, its story, beauty, rarity and accessories as well as the paper all contribute to that final value. This may derail the thread, I hope not.