does anyone of you know this smith?

[kusunokimasahige]

someone recently offered me a katana in shin-gunto mounting, and according to him the blade was forged between 1846 and 1851 by a smith named minamoto kiyomaro who was born in in 1813 in shinano.

in 1846 he changed his name into minamoto masayuki which is the name on the tang...in 1851 he comitted suicide according to this person.

 

does anyone on here know this smith at all?

 

I dont have photos yet, I have requested close up photos of the blade and tang...

 

any help is welcome!

 

KM

[Ichi]

I don't know him personally, but according to Hawley's Yamaura Tamaki Minamoto Kiyomaro is given 150 pts which means he's in the top ranking smith. You should post a pic of the tang to see whether the signature is geniune.

[Stephen]

He is a big name so you want to be very careful

[bdgrange]

Minamoto Kiyomaro was a great smith argueably the greatest of the shin shinto period. Kiyomaro was the only toko able to produce so much technical skill in his work.

He produced many famous swords.

There are changes in the way he inscribed his mei from year to year and also changes in the way he made swords from period to period.

The hamon itself changes from ko choji midare with narrow nioguchi to gonome midare with vigarous sunagashi to the varied hamon of gonome which in turn became fairly large, to the o gonome of his twilight years in which the kashira were fairly uniform or umo no ha (horse teeth).

Taken from the "Nihonto Koza.

 

 

delagrange

[paulb]

The most expensive Katana sold in a UK salesroom was a kiyomaru blade. If memory serves correctly it sold for more than $450K.

If the vendor knows the smiths history it is reasonable to assume they should also know the blades true value. Therefore if it is not very expensive please be very careful.

[kusunokimasahige]

The vendor is a re-enactor of WWII 17th armour division and he just let someone else find out about the name, wether or not he knows the true value of the sword i dont know... however i have requested photos, and hope that when he sends them i can post them here...

 

i am very happy with all the help you are providing at the moment!

 

domo arigato gozaimasu!

 

KM

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Just bought a nice book about Kiyomaro and Kotetsu...

[kusunokimasahige]

UPDATE:

 

Hello all, well i got an e mail of him, and he wrote to me that he would take photos and send them. He also told me that he had a letter of the Army Museum here in the Netherlands stating it was this smith(still no guarantee)

 

so I will keep all of you posted...

 

I expect the sword is in dire need of a polish.... we'll see..

 

KM

[Stephen]

Still be wary as museums are known for not having there ducks in a row. post pix if the mei is close then well go from there.

[kusunokimasahige]

Hello all here are some photos the owner sent me, however the mei is not sharp at all and i have asked him to take another photo of it..

 

what do you think of the rest of the photos so far, if anything.

 

best wishes,

 

KM

 

 

 

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

what do you think of the rest of the photos so far, if anything.

 

I think he's trying to sell a mounting rather then a balde...

 

I wait for better pictures of both balde and signature.

[Ed]

Seems strange all the photos were in perfect focus, except the mei.

 

There is no way to tell anything from those photos, aside from that there is a sword of sorts in a ratty koshirae.

[DavidF]

Yeah, it does seem odd that everything is in focus except the mei.

Me thinks someone is trying to pull a fast one.

 

DaveF.

[Brian]

Could just be that his camera doesn't have a good macro function. I see this often on close up photos on eBay.

But I agree that the photos given don't show anything at all. You will need much better close up shots to decide anything. Blade and nakago.

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

I have the same feeling, that is why i have asked him to take several more photographs, and i might even visit the guy to do it myself before buying.. but he is very very slow....

 

anyway since he is a re-enactor whose group I know, i feel this is a personal lack rather than the fast pull thingie...

 

but you never know of course...

 

KM

[kusunokimasahige]

Hello All, Well he finally sent me some photos. not all great quality, but well he is not that experienced in taking digital photos and computering, i have seen some of his re-enactment photos so....

 

ill start with the Mei: (the earlier one i posted was rotated in windows, see below for original pic)

 

*EDIT*

*end EDIT*

 

The tip:

 

 

 

 

The blade: (which will definetely need a new polish)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know these are not the best blade photos, not as refined as Darcy's..

 

However I do hope that your trained eyes can make something of it, of course the Mei, but maybe also the blade...

 

it apparently has been in a War situation since its a vet bringback...

 

best wishes,

 

Kusunokimasahige

[Stephen]

right to me...i split the screen and hand yours next to the page i posted...not very encouraging and the out of polish does not show us much ...id say if he wants a arm and a leg i'd pass, the price of a good gunto it may be worth getting into it. Dont go by my assessment ask others what they think.

[Grey Doffin]

The signature is definitely a forgery and the yasurime (file marks are wrong also. I wouldn't expect the blade to be anything special. It shouldn't be worth much.

Grey

[kusunokimasahige]

so...

 

If it is gimei, or of some other Smith,

 

what would you say about the 400 (501.89US$ ) Euro he wants for it?

 

I mean, is it a nihon-to, or a gendaito maybe?

 

KM

[Stephen]

its Nihonto, unless its got a stamp somewhere we cant see...500 usa hell ya!

[kusunokimasahige]

Domou arigatou gozaimasu!!!!!!!

 

if its a hell ya! i might get it then, and take a lot of MUCH BETTER pics myself...

 

any opinions of others of course still welcome!

 

KM

 

PS might the characters be read differently perhaps? kun-yomi / on-yomi or even classical Japanese?

 

thats also a question which intrigues me....

 

sorry I forgot to post the original pic of the mei... the one i first posted was a rotated one done in windows... may have had data loss due to rotating it...this is the original one.... as it was sent to me.

 

PS: where do you see the file marks? I sure dont see any....

 

[Grey Doffin]

The picture right above this post shows kiri (horizontal with the blade upright) yasurime, unless my old eyes are failing me. Grey

[David Flynn]

The signature is definately, Minamoto Masayuki

wheather or not it is Gimei, I don't know.

[kusunokimasahige]

TY for the reading!

 

any other opinions also more than welcome!

 

KM

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

A friend of mine was asked for 1000 euro for an NCO SHINGUNTO here in Italy. "Perfect conditions"... :lol:

 

500 U$... if you don't go for it let me know the phone of your friend.

[Stephen]

ill say once more I'm sure its gimei but not qualified to say so, it takes someone with more training to make a statement to that effect, even when its obvious

[kusunokimasahige]

well Stephen, according to the real mei i have seen he almost always signed his mei on the line (raised part) of the nakago... so yes i guess the same.. gimei...

 

but as i stated earlier, i dont care that much if its gimei, its more important that it is nihonto......

 

KM

[David Flynn]

Wheather or not it is gimei, it still depends on how much you like the sword. And untill or unless, it is submitted for shinsa, it is a Masayuki