KarlPeterSmith Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Forget all the previous confusion regarding this school... no speculation.... just FACTS... as shown on each-and-every blade. It's just a shame the Yamashiro Master - Umetada Myoju never carved that elusive Hizen character that I've found the code in... that would have been very nice to have at the top of my list. We all change our names from time to time... Noriyoshi became JO MUNETSUGU... Hirosada>YOSHIIE>... Hironori>TADAKUNI... Muneyasu>MUNETSUGU(junior)... ... and we rarely (if at any time) change the way we write where-we-live. Hence the uniformity of this character during their many name changes... Of course... if your boss... 'your teacher' is telling you to identify yourself in the very 1st character on the blade then you 'kinda' work your name into it... or least use the chisel-code... number of strokes... direction of your chisel etc that identifies you. If any inferior goods are returned to the Smithy... heads-will-roll... as your boss knows who made it. A bit like an identifying-modern-product-date-stamp. I'm so confident in the CODE.. please POST the character HIZEN... frorn ANY 'Tadayoshi School' blade ...and I will tell you who signed it. The hand that held the chisel. Gauntlet thrown... any takers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 " or least use the chisel-code... number of strokes... direction of your chisel etc that identifies you. If any inferior goods are returned to the Smithy... heads-will-roll... as your boss knows who made it. A bit like an identifying-modern-product-date-stamp. I'm so confident in the CODE.. please POST the character HIZEN... frorn ANY 'Tadayoshi School' blade ...and I will tell you who signed it. The hand that held the chisel." Hi Karl, if your code works?, and as in your last statement, it will tell you who signed it. So, not to confuse, but how do we know (for sure) from all this who made it? To clarify, an example. A Tadayoshi (none in particular) asks his student to make five swords, the student makes five swords. So impressed is Tadayoshi that he signs all five swords (using his particular code). A sword is returned by a customer with a problem six months later. Who takes the blame??, poor old Tadayoshi, that's who!. If he had been clever he would covered himself using an apprentice approval code maybe? lol When you say inferior goods returned, can you clarify?, would have thought there would be a pre- delivery inspection. I suppose an example could be a sword brakes in a duel and the customer demands a refund or a replacement maybe?. I suppose you would need a receipt, bill of sale. Where one would draw the line with this I don't know, anti-corrosion warranty maybe Ps, I'm not sure there will be any takers on your offer at the moment, you haven't offered any evidence, images or in-depth explanation to your theory. On a good note though, does get me a wondering/speculating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 All 'sold' swords are being attributed to the signed name. And are being certified this way yes? If you study enough 'sword signatures' on swords solely made by a single signer... when the 'maker' signs for the 'Tadayoshi School'... you can see it is their work... and is even still in their hand-writing... even though the factory name at the lower end of the tang says 'Tadayoshi'... and is especially evident if the signature says 'Tadahiro'. All 'unsigned' swords are being 'attributed' on file-marks and a plethora of the most available data (number of swords available for study). If more available swords look a-certain-way ...and are signed-the-same-way then this most common opinion is made out to be the truth... rather than REALLY looking at the writing. Some may muddy the truth - and could say... "It's the difference between 300-years-from-now identifying a real Andy Warhol 'print' from one of the more widely available 1000's of Factory prints"... but it it isn't... IF Zandra Rhodes (clothes and close-friend designer from another factory) signed a Warhol print... you can see it's a Rhodes signature with Zandra flare. Same ball-park... just applied to sword-making. In response to who made the sword ('Alex A'...) The experts who are attributing and certifying ALL unsigned swords have 'years' of democratic voting behind them... so... they can take a re-vote and update all resubmitted certified blades... OR...based on all NEW available evidence.... (certificates in the database) ... Send them a courteous updated certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 UPDATE: Using the NEW 'code'... the sword signed soley with the title 'Musashi Daijo Fujiwara' (in the possession of Colin Stewart) is signed by Noriyoshi (temporary father of Tadayoshi before he was sent to Master Myoju's forge) ...and who later became Jo Munetsugu (Head of all Hizen Smiths 1608) whose station was above that of Tadayoshi (his gifted adopted son). Another sword signed 'Hizen ju Tadayoshi' with 'HIZEN' written in Jo Munetsugu's Handwriting matches the file directions and overall style and feel of the one in Colins possession... he said it 'actually-looks-like-his-sword'. Jo's CODE is what looks like a letter 'P' in the top right of HIZEN... and a very SHARP and HARD chisel mark... if you look at how Jo Munetsugu wrote his 'own-name' you 'll see that the P in Hizen is his name. It's that obvious.... and it's that clever. On Colin's blade... the 'jo' character... the 2nd character of Dai-jo (which can be spelt a few different ways)... has an extra line in it... The JO literally was the Jou Tsuka-no-Kashira... the person in charge of all of the Hizen smiths. Jo Munetsugu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Here's the 1st 'HIZEN-SMITH-CODE' character.... ...best to START with Tadayoshi's 1st adopted Father & Master and Sword-Making Priest NORIYOSHI/JO MUNETSUGU. Master UMETADA MYOJU was based in YAMASHIRO and not HIZEN so apologies for NOT having Myoju as the 1st character.... but chronologically Jo Munetsugu would be 1st... so releasing the Jo's character 1st is probably correct. I'll wait to see the community reponse... before releasing the OTHER characters - i.e. all others present within the Tadayoshi-School. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 TADAKUNI Once you have seen one... you'll wish to see another... and this example of the 'HIZEN-SMITH-CODE' is very impressive... I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on the CODE... now you have had a taster. FOOTNOTE: I do not know how to delete pictures in this thread... (can the admin please delete the picture in this post and I will upload one correctly into the next box below, (i spotted a clerical error) thank you. I will rename this Tadakuni information as a correctly named .jpeg as the one I have shown here states Hizen Ju Tadayoshi. This information had not yet been changed since uploading the Jo Munetsugu above.) Thank you. I have to be precise with all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 HIRONORI (TADAKUNI WRITING).jpg This file is named correctly. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Hello Karl, thanks for uploading some of your findings, look forward to having good study later: Your Andy Warhol analogy was interesting, got me thinking, some might say speculating (or is it speculating?) Lets say I have a Tadayoshi, paid £10,000, with all the bells and whistles, and Hozen. Using the Andy Warhol analogy, one might ask two question. 1)Who made the sword?. Can anyone say for sure who made the sword?, Back to the pupil thing again, some Work by an apprentice will be indistinguishable. I can imagine Tadayoshi popping into the smithy now and again with a brew looking things over. Unless that is, you discover the Teacher/student code??, maybe that will clear up this problem. 2) Who signed the sword?. Lets face it, if we were not there to witness it, how do we know they signed it?. Must have become pretty tedious signing mei, whos to say that Tadayoshi didn't pay a guy to sign his mei?, How long would it take skilled chiseller to learn, a few afternoons on a few rejects maybe, code included. Hmm, but would there be a "passing the buck" code? So, chances are that someone has paid a lot of money for something with a few hidden truths, its fun buying stuff that's 300+ years old. Who gains from all this, I wonder?. Who knows, if you get to the bottom of all this with braking the codes, you too could make some money from appraisal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 HIRONORI (TADAKUNI WRITING).jpg This file is named correctly. Thank you. I‘m confused. The nori in Hironori is written 則, not 刖, so how can it be changed into 前? And especially the 廣 into 肥? Btw, 広 is the abbreviated, modern writing of 廣. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I‘m confused. The nori in Hironori is written 則, not 刖, so how can it be changed into 前? And especially the 廣 into 肥? Btw, 広 is the abbreviated, modern writing of 廣. Indeed. The abbreviated form 広 of 廣 was not in use before the Meiji era (and only become common in the early Showa era). In olden times, 広 would have been abbreviated as 广 (if at all). http://www.kanken.or.jp/project/data/investigation_incentive_award_2010_yamashita.pdf#search=%27%E5%BA%83%E3%81%AE%E5%AD%97%E3%81%AF%E3%81%84%E3%81%A4%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Here's the 1st 'HIZEN-SMITH-CODE' character.... ...best to START with Tadayoshi's 1st adopted Father & Master and Sword-Making Priest NORIYOSHI/JO MUNETSUGU. Master UMETADA MYOJU was based in YAMASHIRO and not HIZEN so apologies for NOT having Myoju as the 1st character.... but chronologically Jo Munetsugu would be 1st... so releasing the Jo's character 1st is probably correct. I'll wait to see the community reponse... before releasing the OTHER characters - i.e. all others present within the Tadayoshi-School. Why is there a Koyama Munetsugu reference in this pic titled 1602? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordGuyJoe Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 You're totally right Markus and that sole character is incorrect... I'll take that Koyama Munetsuga character out. (I was cutting and pasting from a Munetsugu file)... good shout-out :-). I'll edit and re-post. OR maybe I'll emphasize and point-out what you've pointed-out and add that the Munetsugu were still writing like this in 1845... showing uniformity and that not a lot has changed. [After looking at it again. You're right... I've totally deleted that incorrect ref signature.] What was I thinking? I should not really show any of this for 'another year' until the visuals of the journey are water-tight... BUT hey... there are books in print that everyone is referring to at the moment that are totally wrong and no-one is saying anything about them and are using them like an unquestionable oracle. Amendments on this thread are ok. The CODE is still tight. It's not like I've submitted it to Nielson book data yet. Cheers Markus. I take my hat off to you for spotting that... even before the dry run. I may run each character past you as I put the info together. I'm enjoying the journey and it still continues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Here's the 1st 'HIZEN-SMITH-CODE' character.... ...best to START with Tadayoshi's 1st adopted Father & Master and Sword-Making Priest NORIYOSHI/JO MUNETSUGU. Master UMETADA MYOJU was based in YAMASHIRO and not HIZEN so apologies for NOT having Myoju as the 1st character.... but chronologically Jo Munetsugu would be 1st... so releasing the Jo's character 1st is probably correct. ................................................................................................................................................................................................................. My post #95 should be struck-from-the-record 'Your Honour'... if JUDGES can do it.... so can admin. :-) Make it so. Please. I do hate errors flying-around... especially if they are my own... and especially if they have 'subsequently/since' been corrected. ................................................................................................................................................................................................................. This is a NEW PIC and amendment - identified by eagle-eyed Markus #101 (He KNOWS his stuff.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 HIZEN SMITH CODE identified by Karl Peter Smith BA Oct 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Hi Karl. What happens to the code when someone just signs....... An example. Tadakuni signing............................. Harima Daijo Fujiwara Tadakuni. Is there a need for a code? Is that where it ends?..............is there a code in there?..............for some reason? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Let me get that straight Karl: What you are preparing is an overview of the individual features of the character HI in HIZEN as used by several Hizen smiths, right? And what books are you talking about that are "totally wrong"? Well, I mean I honestly don't want to sound egocentric but as you mention "referring to at the moment", there IS a slight chance that one of my books is concerned. If so, I would be eager to know about possible errors or ambiguities (and transparent backing info) in order to correct them. Apart from that, the "full" Koyama Munetsugu mei is still in the pic (and titled 1602) and this smith is not at all related to the Hizen Munetsugu line. What I would recommend is that you also incorporate Yokoyama Manabu's extensive studies on Hizen-tô (as published in the Token Bijutsu) in which he also goes much into detail about various daimei and their individual features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussi Ekholm Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 I don't know anything about Hizen swords and they are bit later than my main interests. However as they are good swords I can still appreciate them. So I am just chiming in to second what Markus said about running Hizen article series in Token Bijutsu. 468 is the first number in my library and it has article: Hizen-tô #25 – Jishin-mei of the 2nd gen. Tadahiro (忠広) and daimei of the 3rd generation. In that article you can see about c. 30 Tadahiro mei, with an article that explains things (of course I personally haven't read it fully [just small pieces of it] as my with my beginner Japanese skill even small articles take so long to translate for myself and all Hizen articles are long). Lots of interesting information in this thread and hopefully it will continue on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Im thinking "code" was the wrong word to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlPeterSmith Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 How on Earth was Umetada Jusia Hon-ami (Myoju's younger brother) overlooked as a signatory for 1st Gen TADAYOSHI? He was actually running Myoju's Yamashiro Smith in 1605. Would you Adam'n'Eve that he was commissioned to polished a Masamune in 1609 ! And he had the nod to engrave it too... PLUS he was doing Oshigata for a contemporary researcher... So he WAS officially carving blades to identify them. This evidence.. with EVEN GREATER provenance speaks for itself (It fits 1629 better than Munenaga who some say may not have worked past 1620... and his writing also has an uncanny resemblance.) No matter what I say... take a look at the evidence... [Cue Spandau Ballet's 'GOLD' song] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Not commenting on your "theory" but you really have to be more careful selecting your references Karl. The Tadayoshi blade in the middle of the last pic, that is somehow presented as 1596/1601? work, is actually dated Ansei six (1859). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordGuyJoe Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 No matter what I say... take a look at the evidence... Okay - So to ask a fair question, what are you actually trying to prove? - How on Earth was Umetada Jusia Hon-ami (Myoju's younger brother) overlooked as a signatory for 1st Gen TADAYOSHI? I would say that it's less overlooked as it is under-proven. Let's hear the rest, since I am sure you've got this one nailed! - Would you Adam'n'Eve that he was commissioned to polished a Masamune in 1609? Yes I would. The Hon'ami are/were one of the most famous and respected lineage of sword polishers and appraisers ever. - And he had the nod to engrave it too... : I don't see any engraved Masamune sword here. Is there a different sword that you are referring to that you have not posted showing Hon'ami's chisel work? - PLUS he was doing Oshigata for a contemporary researcher...: I Adam'n'Eve that one too (See first point about being extremely famous and well respected) - So he WAS officially carving blades to identify them: This is now a leap without actual proof. I could try to google this, but you're presenting your 'research', so why don't you have a go I am not attempting to be glib or sarcastic, but I honestly don't know what you're doing anymore. In your two big examples, you have compared Shinto Hizen (and I guess hon'ami now?) work to shinshinto work and in one case a completely unrelated Musashi smith. So are you saying that over a hundred years after the death of the carver you are proving, people were still carving mei similarly? It's difficult to understand your point when the data you are basing your research on is wrong. I am all for discussing theories that are "in progress", which this obviously is, but you're calling out text/references as being flat our wrong and from what I have seen so far, the point that has been proven is that smiths in Hizen, Musashi, and Hon'ami's spanning hundreds of years all write in similar styles (i.e. Japanese). Let's see something concrete, based on correct sources/examples, that we can all sink our teeth into. We're all anxious to learn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Well, Brian, if you can make any sense of those – for me absolutely incomprehensible – "facts" and "evidence", I would be delighted to get the reader's digest version from you. The way I see it, we're dealing with someone who thinks of himself as the Alan Turning of the nihontō world, but bases his "code" on blurry pictures he gets off the internet, and that are often in no way related to the smiths discussed here. It's painfully obvious that he doesn't know anything about the construction and usage of kanji (see post # 99 ff, which he conveniently ignored). Questions directed at him are left unanswered; instead we get a new composite picture with lots of arrows and no discernible direction. And of course the claim that all recognized experts are wrong, only he understands THE CODE! Granted, his posts had a certain entertainment value for a time, but even that is now wearing more than thin. I therefore will bow out of this thread, but not before thanking Roger (I truly miss our semi-monthly pork knuckle dinners in Beijing!) for his patience and the presentation of *real* facts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordGuyJoe Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 ... it's taken 2 years of looking at everything the internet has to offer (up to 2015).... So to better inform myself of what you are actually attempting to do, I read through this entire thread - that was very educational - Thank you Roger! I have to admit to only passively reading some of the details - as I am not a Hizen-to guy - and drooling over a few example shown, eagerly awaiting "The Code". To start, I have given thought to starting down the process of writing a book on the Shigetsugu lineage, that maybe a couple people would read and less would find interesting and informative - much less creating something that would be a staple/definitive work on the topic (like Roger's book for example). Likely both Markus' gendai project and Chris' book on Tokyo gendaito will come out well before I have the time to even begin a venture, much less complete it, making it more or less a moot point. Regardless, if I have put in the time and effort (oh, don't forget expense as these things aren't cheap and it is IMPERATIVE to study work in hand for long periods of time, so seeing a couple examples for 30 minutes at a sword show doesn't count), I would expect at least a small amount of courtesy - not respect, just courtesy - from people who believe I was wrong in certain areas. Something you have failed to provide these two gentleman who know WAY more than you or I do! But you have a BA, so I guess that means you're smart. When I wrote my response above, I was doing my absolute best to say something constructive, but encouraging and respectful. After reading the entire thread thoroughly, I found I wasted my time and gave you something that you have been unwilling to give Roger and Markus (and others that have gently tried to nudge to you a more right conclusion/direction). Roger spent decades researching this topic, with actual swords in hand, inspecting the biggest part of what truly matters - the work of the swordsmith. Not just NBTHK papers or googling Umetada or looking at pictures that often do not show the subtle details that can truly tell you the difference between nidai and shodai. Markus can actually read and translate Japanese, something you seem unwilling or unable to do - Examples being not even reading the Shinshinto Koyama Munetsugu you referenced as an example of Shinto Hizen work and the fact that you posted an Ansei example of Shinto Hizen. Regardless of everything above and the fact that you exceeded my patience weeks ago and just failed to realize it, I am going to take the time to give some advice (that you'll no doubt disregard and ignore). It seems as though you are attempting to build a mansion on swampland. Meaning, it appears that you are attempting to embark on a very advanced level of research and study (the mansion - not a shack, not a house, top-o-the-line mansion), without taking the time to build a foundation of sound reason and understanding of basic concepts of nihonto and the Japanese language as a whole. Once you build that foundation, maybe then start studying things like the gokaden, how that influenced Hizen-to, traits of blades created by the mainline, variations of papered mei within mainline smiths, and finally areas where people may have got it wrong. What am I saying? Ask Roger, he knows how to go about studying Hizen work WAY better than a lowly collector of gendaito, and for some reason is VERY giving of his time and expertise. I'm sure he'll never notice that I am attempting to pay him some respect, since he's likely stopped wasting his time reading this thread weeks ago. So, I'll take my warning Brian and in fairness, you can remove my initial post from yesterday, since the tone is all wrong and should have been FAR more pointed. Someone should have properly put Mr. Karl in his place weeks ago, warning be-damned. Edited as I was shown that I was incorrect in one statement. Thank you for pointing that out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isocyanide Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 and for some reason is VERY giving of his time and expertise I really hope Roger comes back and shares some more on the school. I'm still a padawan, but hopefully I can gain a fraction of the knowledge on the Hizen Tadayoshi school that Roger has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlPeterSmith Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 I'll keep adding things to this thread to keep you all thinking about the available factual evidence... UMETADA MYOJU & Kunihiro student > KUNISADA... making a Musashi Daijo Fujiwara for 1st Gen Tadayoshi? Blasphemy or the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 Mods, I think it's time to let the hammer fall and lock this thread - this continuing nonsense is almost unbearable ... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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