Jump to content

Question on my future Nihonto by Noshu Kanehide


Widowmaker

Recommended Posts

Hello everyone,

 

First, thank you to Brian who accepted my inscription.

 

My name is ZHANG. I am totally new here. I was on SBG forum before, since I purchased my first real nihonto, people told me that I may receive great help in this forum.

 

I am french Nihonto passionate. Early this year, I ordered a Howard Clark L6 modern tool steel Katana because it seems that this katana is "indestructible". With time, my knowledge on katana has grown more and more, I have understood that there is no such a indestructible blade. Even the blade is very touch, its edge shows less edge holding capacity. I saw a lot of thread in which people look down on traditionnal Tamahagane steel Nihonto and think that nowadays super steel can outperform old days Nihonto in any aspect. Even nowadays steel may be really amazing, that doesn't mean that tamahagane Nihonto are rubbish work. On the contrary, esthetically and physically, Real Nihonto really shine in both compared to nowadays modern tool steel blade.

 

So I turned my eyes to looking for some Real Nihonto. Some days ago, I found the site web Tokugawa Arts Swrod and saw this Nihonto http://www.sanmei.com/contents/en-us/p1878.html I immediately fall in love with it: perfect measurements for me, nice curvature, beautiful koshirae, almost mint condition. For a 28 years old nihonto, it is well conserved. On top of that, this is a Noshu Kanehide's late masterpiece a few years before his death. For information, the Gunto that Mr.McCartney Russel used to perform his Geness record Senbongiri was forged by Kanehide as well.

 

The first reason for what I buy it is because I think a traditionnal Tamahagane katana made by a Japanese smith makes more sens. It is like we belong a part of the Nihonto history. I had a few questions for the seller, we were be able to talk through skype, the seller called Yuji was very kind and answered all my questions. Here are some additionnal information about the katana:

 

1.This katana was made under traditional forging method constrruction of "Orikaeshi San-Mai" (turn-up three layers) using traditional fine steel of "Tamahagane" which is made by Tatara (furnace).

2.This katana was polished only once when it was made and still remains an original polish status.

3.The katanas made by Kanehide have good reputation as "supreme sharp" therefore this katana also must perform very sharp cutting result.

4.Please note that we need to apply an export permission lisence by the Agency of Cultural Affairs in Japan. This process takes 2 business weeks after processing to the government.

5.NBTHK will isuue for those deceased artisan. Next chance for judgement will be accepted on November 3, 4, 5 in Tokyo and the sword will be returned to us Februaly 2015.

The nihonto cost me 4500$ shipping included.

 

 

Here come my questions: As this is my first Nihonto and as I don't know very well this shop, I want to ask you some questions about the quality of the Nihonto

 

1. From the photos on the page web, Do you see any sign that this blade has already been polished or repaired(if any chips or edge roll may exist)? What do you think about the Hamon and globally, about the geometry, about the koshirae and the saya?

 

2. Have some already shopped in this Japanese store? It is first time I shop in this store. THe seller was very kind.

 

3. How much do you know about the smith Noshu Kanehide. I know that he is one of the four 2 Millions Yen level Smith in that periode, and he has received a lot of price. I know also about the senbongiri geness record holder used his gunto to perform thousand of cuts without sharpening the edge.

 

4. Do you think that I need to polish it recently? Thank you very much

 

I know those are a lot of questions for a new member. but this is an important purchase which cost me a lot. It is also my first Real Nihonto. So please understand my worries. I hope this doesn't disturb you a lot. Thank you very much again.

 

Have a nice day for all!

 

Sincerely

post-5186-14196921093487_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bienvenue Zhang.

 

I think that is a katana with some decent aspects to study and learn from, from a well-known gendai smith, at a fair value. Tokugawa Art / Sanmei Trading has been around for a long time, to my limited knowledge they are a perfectly legitimate seller. The koshirae is fairly standard modern example, well-made in an absolute sense but nothing special in a snobby artsy collector sense. ;)

 

The sword was polished once when it was made (indeed, polishing is part of the art of the Japanese sword) and I don't see any reason it would have been re-polished so soon. I do not think you should waste money re-polishing this sword as it is in fine state for enjoying and viewing, and every polish takes a little away from a sword's lifespan.

 

In short, for a first nihontō I think there are many worse choices you could have made. If you hadn't already purchased it, I would have suggested perhaps that you take the time to study more actual examples in-person—at clubs, shows, exhibits, etc.—to gain a deeper knowledge of smiths and workmanship. Then you'd have a better idea of what you are looking at and would be more confident in your selection. However, you did not make any "mistakes" here, so since the deed is done I suppose congratulations are in order on your acquisition. :)

 

Regards,

 

—Gabriel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you gabriel, for your precise answers.

 

Another technical question, as this katana has a orikaeshi sanmai, I am trying to search some comparaison cons pros between Honsanmai and Orikaeshi Sanmai contruction, but I cannot find anything interesting. There is another thread mentionned orikaeshi sanmai here, but it doesn't provide any information on the advantage of orikaeshi sanmai.

 

I just want to know, what does the 6 ingots orikaeshi sanmai construction change compared to the 4 ingots honsanmai construction. Pros? Cons?

 

Thank you very much!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't get to caught up in all the technical details of the construction. They mean relatively little. Orikaeshi just means folded back and forth. All traditionally made swords are forged with orikaeshi tanren. The way the smith composes the billets is what gives rise to kobuse, sanmai, etc. types of construction.

 

Kanehide is my pick as the best of the war era Seki smiths. My opinion of Seki WWII era smiths is not very high but he is one of a few exceptions that produces some very nice blades. Congrats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if I am wrong but I think he is asking SHOULD he buy it based on the web page description.

 

To be honest if you consider $4500 as a lot of money then id say no. This suggests that you won't buy many nihonto at that price. Since you have gone to the trouble to ask such an in depth question ill be as honest about my opinion as I can.

 

The sword is very expensive for what it is, which is a modern sword. It was never carried into a war or by a samurai. Its value will be approximately half of what you have paid if you try and re sell it. There are very good reasons why it is in the bargain section of the website. You can buy far older blades with history behind them for $1000+. You can buy excellent blades for $2500 and up you just need to shop around. I am referring to katana size and up,wakizashis are considerably cheaper.

 

If you are worried about functionality buy a bainite blade made of high quality steel to your specifications it will be cheaper.

If you want artwork with resale value buy 1800's or earlier.

This work has its place and if you have looked at many older nihonto but you like it the best then id say buy it. To me though nothing stands out enough to spend $4500 on it. I suggest looking around at alot more swords like other have.

 

http://www.aoijapan.com/japanesesword/katana have a look here, better swords at better prices imo tbh though I prefer riskier deals myself ;)

 

I buy, sell and trade swords purely for fun, not for a source of income.

 

Trent S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you have done well Zhang,

and it looks to be the complete package, some of these better 'gendai' smiths swords do attract a lot of money, many of the expert people here seem to agree, and as it has been stated has been bought from a trusted seller, so please let us all know when it arrives as to your thoughts when the sword is in hand,

regards

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Trent's post.

 

Sanmei is a very reliable seller, i buy once with them and as you say, very kind, pay attention for special requirements and quick shipping (2 weeks of papers with Agency of Cultural Affairs, no more).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if I am wrong but I think he is asking SHOULD he buy it based on the web page description.

 

 

The sword is very expensive for what it is, which is a modern sword. It was never carried into a war or by a samurai. Its value will be approximately half of what you have paid if you try and re sell it. There are very good reasons why it is in the bargain section of the website. You can buy far older blades with history behind them for $1000+. You can buy excellent blades for $2500 and up you just need to shop around. I am referring to katana size and up,wakizashis are considerably cheaper.

 

 

 

When I follow the link to the site the sword is listed in the previously sold area.. not the 'bargain section', so I think he did purchase it.

 

I bought from this seller before as well, the menuki arrived three days after I purchased, so I don't think you have anything to worry about and he sends email updates as the order status changes.

 

I suppose some people don't like shinsakuto because it has no "samurai history" but I don't think the resale would be 'half' as $4500 is quite average for a decent shinsakuto and at 70.6cm it's again a fairly average length as an iai blade, so there is a market either way. The blade activity looks nice and seems to be in good polish. I'd say a good purchase, however if you did want something older or your tastes change as there is more good literature on older blades compared to new ones, then I'd say $4500 is a bit much - but if it was me and I was into collecting Seki smiths I'd be happy with the purchase! Congrats :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if I am wrong but I think he is asking SHOULD he buy it based on the web page description.

 

To be honest if you consider $4500 as a lot of money then id say no. This suggests that you won't buy many nihonto at that price. Since you have gone to the trouble to ask such an in depth question ill be as honest about my opinion as I can.

 

The sword is very expensive for what it is, which is a modern sword. It was never carried into a war or by a samurai. Its value will be approximately half of what you have paid if you try and re sell it. There are very good reasons why it is in the bargain section of the website. You can buy far older blades with history behind them for $1000+. You can buy excellent blades for $2500 and up you just need to shop around. I am referring to katana size and up,wakizashis are considerably cheaper.

 

If you are worried about functionality buy a bainite blade made of high quality steel to your specifications it will be cheaper.

If you want artwork with resale value buy 1800's or earlier.

This work has its place and if you have looked at many older nihonto but you like it the best then id say buy it. To me though nothing stands out enough to spend $4500 on it. I suggest looking around at alot more swords like other have.

 

I buy, sell and trade swords purely for fun, not for a source of income.

 

Trent S

 

Hello Bobtail,

 

Thank you for your frank opinion.

 

The original price is 5500$, when I asked if 4500$ is possible, the seller accepted my offer. So I don't know if it really cost that or it may costs less, since the seller accpeted my offer without negociating.

However, I cannot find on any site which offer interesting Nihonto under 3000$. Maybe I haven't search enough. There are sure some very nice 1600-1800 Nihonto which are made by top notch smith and which have the sharpest cutting performance. They were also owned by famous Daimyo like 丰臣秀吉,福岛正则...However, when I look at the price, they are often priced 2-4 millions yen +, maybe even more, and that is totally out of my budget.

 

Moreoever, what I am looking for is a not very ancient Nihonto which is still capable of excellent cutting performance. I am not a collectionner(at least not now), I probably don't need some art piece which has a great value but which may not be able to cut anymore and which needs to be conserved eternally as an art piece. I need something functionnal, but not made by modern steel such as l6 w2 etc...I need some functionnal Traditionnal Tamahagane made Nihonto. That's it.

 

Honestly, I don't know about the true value of this nihonto. I just like the measurements, plus I know the smith. The edge seems to be in mint condition and doesn't have any hagire. The price seems to be resaonnalbe for me for a Nihonto. It comes in full koshirae. That is why I purchased it.

 

But Thank you for your advice Bob, I plan to visit Japan late this year to issue this nihonto to NBHTK so that they can rate this ninhonto.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if I am wrong but I think he is asking SHOULD he buy it based on the web page description.

 

 

The sword is very expensive for what it is, which is a modern sword. It was never carried into a war or by a samurai. Its value will be approximately half of what you have paid if you try and re sell it. There are very good reasons why it is in the bargain section of the website. You can buy far older blades with history behind them for $1000+. You can buy excellent blades for $2500 and up you just need to shop around. I am referring to katana size and up,wakizashis are considerably cheaper.

 

 

 

When I follow the link to the site the sword is listed in the previously sold area.. not the 'bargain section', so I think he did purchase it.

 

I bought from this seller before as well, the menuki arrived three days after I purchased, so I don't think you have anything to worry about and he sends email updates as the order status changes.

 

I suppose some people don't like shinsakuto because it has no "samurai history" but I don't think the resale would be 'half' as $4500 is quite average for a decent shinsakuto and at 70.6cm it's again a fairly average length as an iai blade, so there is a market either way. The blade activity looks nice and seems to be in good polish. I'd say a good purchase, however if you did want something older or your tastes change as there is more good literature on older blades compared to new ones, then I'd say $4500 is a bit much - but if it was me and I was into collecting Seki smiths I'd be happy with the purchase! Congrats :)

 

thats really strange, its coming up in the bargain section for me and it still is now I just double checked. I mean I didn't even know they had a bargain section until I looked where it was.

the internets confuse me

 

Trent S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if I am wrong but I think he is asking SHOULD he buy it based on the web page description.

 

To be honest if you consider $4500 as a lot of money then id say no. This suggests that you won't buy many nihonto at that price. Since you have gone to the trouble to ask such an in depth question ill be as honest about my opinion as I can.

 

The sword is very expensive for what it is, which is a modern sword. It was never carried into a war or by a samurai. Its value will be approximately half of what you have paid if you try and re sell it. There are very good reasons why it is in the bargain section of the website. You can buy far older blades with history behind them for $1000+. You can buy excellent blades for $2500 and up you just need to shop around. I am referring to katana size and up,wakizashis are considerably cheaper.

 

If you are worried about functionality buy a bainite blade made of high quality steel to your specifications it will be cheaper.

If you want artwork with resale value buy 1800's or earlier.

This work has its place and if you have looked at many older nihonto but you like it the best then id say buy it. To me though nothing stands out enough to spend $4500 on it. I suggest looking around at alot more swords like other have.

 

I buy, sell and trade swords purely for fun, not for a source of income.

 

Trent S

 

Hello Bobtail,

 

Thank you for your frank opinion.

 

The original price is 5500$, when I asked if 4500$ is possible, the seller accepted my offer. So I don't know if it really cost that or it may costs less, since the seller accpeted my offer without negociating.

However, I cannot find on any site which offer interesting Nihonto under 3000$. Maybe I haven't search enough. There are sure some very nice 1600-1800 Nihonto which are made by top notch smith and which have the sharpest cutting performance. They were also owned by famous Daimyo like 丰臣秀吉,福岛正则...However, when I look at the price, they are often priced 2-4 millions yen +, maybe even more, and that is totally out of my budget.

 

Moreoever, what I am looking for is a not very ancient Nihonto which is still capable of excellent cutting performance. I am not a collectionner(at least not now), I probably don't need some art piece which has a great value but which may not be able to cut anymore and which needs to be conserved eternally as an art piece. I need something functionnal, but not made by modern steel such as l6 w2 etc...I need some functionnal Traditionnal Tamahagane made Nihonto. That's it.

 

Honestly, I don't know about the true value of this nihonto. I just like the measurements, plus I know the smith. The edge seems to be in mint condition and doesn't have any hagire. The price seems to be resaonnalbe for me for a Nihonto. It comes in full koshirae. That is why I purchased it.

 

But Thank you for your advice Bob, I plan to visit Japan late this year to issue this nihonto to NBHTK so that they can rate this ninhonto.

 

Sounds good, I think that you have exactly what you need if that is your thought process. I was just throwing some ideas around because I wasn't sure if you had purchased it yet. Based on your complete explanation it was a good choice :)

 

Trent S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the price is very reasonable for an off the rack iai-to by a well respected smith. It is very hard to find such a thing for less than $4000-$5000 by an average Seki smith, never mind one of the better ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if I am wrong but I think he is asking SHOULD he buy it based on the web page description.

 

 

The sword is very expensive for what it is, which is a modern sword. It was never carried into a war or by a samurai. Its value will be approximately half of what you have paid if you try and re sell it. There are very good reasons why it is in the bargain section of the website. You can buy far older blades with history behind them for $1000+. You can buy excellent blades for $2500 and up you just need to shop around. I am referring to katana size and up,wakizashis are considerably cheaper.

 

 

 

When I follow the link to the site the sword is listed in the previously sold area.. not the 'bargain section', so I think he did purchase it.

 

I bought from this seller before as well, the menuki arrived three days after I purchased, so I don't think you have anything to worry about and he sends email updates as the order status changes.

 

I suppose some people don't like shinsakuto because it has no "samurai history" but I don't think the resale would be 'half' as $4500 is quite average for a decent shinsakuto and at 70.6cm it's again a fairly average length as an iai blade, so there is a market either way. The blade activity looks nice and seems to be in good polish. I'd say a good purchase, however if you did want something older or your tastes change as there is more good literature on older blades compared to new ones, then I'd say $4500 is a bit much - but if it was me and I was into collecting Seki smiths I'd be happy with the purchase! Congrats :)

I think the price is very reasonable for an off the rack iai-to by a well respected smith. It is very hard to find such a thing for less than $4000-$5000 by an average Seki smith, never mind one of the better ones.

 

Both of you talked about iaito, do you mean that this nihonto is an iaito? or it doesn't suit for tameshigiri or other cuttings?

 

thank you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most current Japanese smiths make two types of sword: those strictly made for collectors/appreciation, and those made for iai/tameshigiri. Both are traditionally made nihon-to. The difference is, most of the time, the iai-to are made using simpler techniques and often a lower grade of materials. An iai-to by a well known smith will usually cost a lot less than the art sword, sometimes half or even a third as much. Iai-to are usually found in user koshirae, art swords in shirasaya or higher end koshirae, with a shirasaya.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most current Japanese smiths make two types of sword: those strictly made for collectors/appreciation, and those made for iai/tameshigiri. Both are traditionally made nihon-to. The difference is, most of the time, the iai-to are made using simpler techniques and often a lower grade of materials. An iai-to by a well known smith will usually cost a lot less than the art sword, sometimes half or even a third as much. Iai-to are usually found in user koshirae, art swords in shirasaya or higher end koshirae, with a shirasaya.

 

Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but I am a little confused...

 

For me, an iaito is often no sharp and has a bohi. It does is made by low grade material as I have already seen many of the cheap iaito no nihonto katana.

 

It is hard for me to believe that I bought a 4500$ iaito...especially when the blade is told to be forged by Kanehide with traditional fine steel of "Tamahagane" and have good reputation as "supreme sharp" which must perform very sharp cutting result.

 

Should I understand that those stricktly made for collectors/appreciation could not used for iaito or tameshigiri in most case? If it is the case, why are they made from better quality material? Or you mean that even if they are made for collectors/appreciation, they can also be used for iai or tameshigiri?

 

Another thing, when you say lower grade material, do you mean lower grade tamahagane or lower grade other type steel? Because Japanese smith use high grade tamahagane for collectors blade and low grade tamahagane for iaito?

 

I am a bit lost...If it is what you mean, I am pretty disappointed so...Was not planning to buy some iaito. I thought that iaito was some very cheap no tamahagane steel blade that used for iai as many of the european or american shop sell. If I knew this, I would not pay 4500$ for just a iaito...

 

Anyway, thank you for your precision. Please explain me more if possible to clarify my doubt. Thank you in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most current Japanese smiths make two types of sword: those strictly made for collectors/appreciation, and those made for iai/tameshigiri. Both are traditionally made nihon-to. The difference is, most of the time, the iai-to are made using simpler techniques and often a lower grade of materials. An iai-to by a well known smith will usually cost a lot less than the art sword, sometimes half or even a third as much. Iai-to are usually found in user koshirae, art swords in shirasaya or higher end koshirae, with a shirasaya.

 

Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but I am a little confused...

 

For me, an iaito is often no sharp and has a bohi. It does is made by low grade material as I have already seen many of the cheap iaito no nihonto katana.

 

It is hard for me to believe that I bought a 4500$ iaito...especially when the blade is told to be forged by Kanehide with traditional fine steel of "Tamahagane" and have good reputation as "supreme sharp" which must perform very sharp cutting result.

 

Should I understand that those stricktly made for collectors/appreciation could not used for iaito or tameshigiri in most case? If it is the case, why are they made from better quality material? Or you mean that even if they are made for collectors/appreciation, they can also be used for iai or tameshigiri?

 

Another thing, when you say lower grade material, do you mean lower grade tamahagane or lower grade other type steel? Because Japanese smith use high grade tamahagane for collectors blade and low grade tamahagane for iaito?

 

I am a bit lost...If it is what you mean, I am pretty disappointed so...Was not planning to buy some iaito. I thought that iaito was some very cheap no tamahagane steel blade that used for iai as many of the european or american shop sell. If I knew this, I would not pay 4500$ for just a iaito...

 

Anyway, thank you for your precision. Please explain me more if possible to clarify my doubt. Thank you in advance.

 

If it has a sharp edge then it isn't an Iaito. Also as far as I was aware Iaito blades are meant to be non ferrous due to legal reasons in Japan. As to what it is made from, unless you asked the smith what he put it in you will never know. You can study the metal and grain after you get it which might help provide evidence.

 

Trent S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When using the term iaito, it simply means a blade used for iai, usually a higher level of iai as most schools will probably restrict beginners from using "live" blades during classes. However, it is pretty common knowledge if you just look up shinsakuto that there are 'art swords', works in which the smiths put into competition and so forth and then blades meant for practitioners of the martial arts. You are correct in your definition of the zinc alluminium iaito from shops such as Tozando but other schools such as Toyama practice tameshigiri, requires a live blade.

 

A higher end example of a shinsakuto would be http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/a00347.html or http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/a00336.html

 

Just browse around a bit and you really should be able to tell the difference especially with modern blades. Still, $4500 is not a bad price for what you got, so don't fret :)!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sharpened/polished blade made by traditional Japanese methods (fully functional): shinken

 

Unsharpened/blunt blade made for martial arts practice in a Japanese context: Iaito

 

All practice blunt blades/katanas for martial arts are called Iaito but you are clutching at straws to call a shinken an Iaito even if you do practice with it.

 

That is what people mean when the say it generally.

 

 

 

When I looked up the word broken down into its parts you get a fluffy translation which doesn't even relate to the labeling of a type of sword. I think a specific word needs to be applied to blunt training swords because if Iaito "technically" applies to any sword that you use for Iaido then what do you call a blunt practice katana for other martial arts that aren't Iaido....seems senselessly confusing.

 

Trent S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if i'm wrong, but doing tameshigiri with this sword will ruin the polish, which cost a lot.

 

That's why blades used for cutting tests aren't shinsakuto. I'm not familiar with Iai and tameshigiri but that's what i thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Iai-to are simply swords meant to be used for iai. They can be, and are, mounted with any sort of blade. They can be shin-ken (real sword blade) or mogi-to (non-ferrous blades which can not be sharpened- what many people use for iai, until they reach upper ranks).

 

For tameshigiri, most people use modern made blades, also called shinsakuto. The polish is usually a lower grade. Some people do indeed use older swords. I knew a famous iai sensei that used a sandai Tadayoshi. Another, an Ichimonji-until he chipped the edge when he hit a staple in the tatami.

 

When I mentioned lower grade materials being used by smiths when they make iai blades, I meant a lower grade of tamahagane. As I said, they are traditionally made nihon-to, just not made the same way, with the same materials.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of these answers can be found by simply searching the internet and looking up information on shinsakuto. Paul Martin's website has a good section on commissioning new works for appreciation and study as well as martial arts, here's the link and a brief quote from the faqs...

 

http://www.thejapanesesword.com/faq-3

 

"In a broad terms, Katana by standard swordsmiths for martial arts use (iaido/tameshigiri, etc) start from approximately 1,000,000 JPY fully mounted (around $10,000 depending on the exchange rate at the time). Katana in plain wooden sleeping scabbards with habaki by smiths rated as master craftsmen (mukansa), start at approximately 3,000,000 JPY (around $30,000 depending on the exchange rate at the time). Swords by prize winners at the annual sword making competitions cost somewhere in between. Second hand swords for martial arts use can be found for around $5000, but come with expected wear and tear. These prices are only a guide, as prices are subject to order and smith. I.E. if you purchase a blade for iaido in shirasaya, it may cost less than 1,000,000 JPY. Also, swords for martial arts by master craftsmen maybe slightly cheaper than their standard rate as the lower polishing price will be reflected in the overall price."

 

Trent, I'm not sure where your definitions for sword classifications come from but just look around a bit, it's actually really, really apparent when you compare competition level shinsakuto with ones created for iai and martial arts (better to see in person). As well, in Japan they need to use shinsakuto as they can't import the Chinese production level stuff due to laws. But very generally, art swords will be in an overall nicer polish and usually found in shirasaya (though not always the case of course), iaito well... they're usually in koshirae suited for iai haha. Like I'm sure many people will recommend, especially if you don't see a difference in art level or iai blades, or even knew that shinsakuto were used for martial arts is just to do more research and reading. Even better is to actually see some in person, as pictures are always hard to judge by.

 

But Zhang, for the amount you paid and the condition the sword is in you really did a good job. That is a blade I think you can appreciate for its workmanship and beauty and if you are a practitioner of the martial arts it is a fine blade for that as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi, glad to have many answers. I do found a thread on the forum which clear some of my doubt.

 

However, the only thing which still bothers me in this story is when Chris said that Ninhonto for Iai/tameshigiri are made of lower grade tamahagane. I wonder where is this information from? From the link Grant showed me, I cannot find any sentence which confirms that Ninhonto for iai/martial art are made from lower grade tamahagane. It doesn't bother me this kind of nihonto comes with a inferior polish since I can understand that highly polished surface will deteriorate very quickly through the abrasion incurred during the repeated unsheathing and sheathing of the blade during practice. But to say that iai/martial art nihonto are made of lower grade tamahagane confuses me a lot

 

For me, if a nihonto is made for iai/martial art/practitioner which supposes to do a lot of tameshigiri and other target cutting, it should be made of nice grade tamahagane. If not, it may be broken more probably due to the low quality material(or low cutting skill). That is why I don't understand why do they forge practitioner blade of low grade tamahagane. That is very contradictory. It is like we said: well, we will produce two cars, one sport car and another one is for display in car show. The sport car will run a lot, so no need to care about the look since it will get dirty very frequently. Let's give it a bad motor and bad stuff also because it is not for display...

 

I do understand that this example may not be accurate because contrary to cars, the steel of a Ninhonto has a direct impact on its beauty. High grade tamahagane will has a brillant color whereas low grade tamahagane will look darker. But I still cannot understand why they use lower grade material on thing which need performance and durability...

 

 

Anyway, to sum up:

 

1. The Kanehide nihonto I purchased is a shinsakuto which is initially made for Iai/Tameshigiri use according to some members. (correct me if it is the contrary).

2. Even the seller told me that this nihonto is made from fine tamahagane steel with the traditionnal process, the quality of the Tamahagane used is unknown for this blade unless NBHTK member makes the identification. (please also show me some source information and explain why nihonto for iai/martial art is made of lower grade tamahagane)

3. Swords for martial arts by master craftsmen maybe slightly cheaper than their standard rate as the lower polishing price will be reflected in the overall price. That explains the price of my Nihonto.

 

Thank you in advance for your explanation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of these answers can be found by simply searching the internet and looking up information on shinsakuto. Paul Martin's website has a good section on commissioning new works for appreciation and study as well as martial arts, here's the link and a brief quote from the faqs...

 

http://www.thejapanesesword.com/faq-3

 

"In a broad terms, Katana by standard swordsmiths for martial arts use (iaido/tameshigiri, etc) start from approximately 1,000,000 JPY fully mounted (around $10,000 depending on the exchange rate at the time). Katana in plain wooden sleeping scabbards with habaki by smiths rated as master craftsmen (mukansa), start at approximately 3,000,000 JPY (around $30,000 depending on the exchange rate at the time). Swords by prize winners at the annual sword making competitions cost somewhere in between. Second hand swords for martial arts use can be found for around $5000, but come with expected wear and tear. These prices are only a guide, as prices are subject to order and smith. I.E. if you purchase a blade for iaido in shirasaya, it may cost less than 1,000,000 JPY. Also, swords for martial arts by master craftsmen maybe slightly cheaper than their standard rate as the lower polishing price will be reflected in the overall price."

 

Trent, I'm not sure where your definitions for sword classifications come from but just look around a bit, it's actually really, really apparent when you compare competition level shinsakuto with ones created for iai and martial arts (better to see in person). As well, in Japan they need to use shinsakuto as they can't import the Chinese production level stuff due to laws. But very generally, art swords will be in an overall nicer polish and usually found in shirasaya (though not always the case of course), iaito well... they're usually in koshirae suited for iai haha. Like I'm sure many people will recommend, especially if you don't see a difference in art level or iai blades, or even knew that shinsakuto were used for martial arts is just to do more research and reading. Even better is to actually see some in person, as pictures are always hard to judge by.

 

But Zhang, for the amount you paid and the condition the sword is in you really did a good job. That is a blade I think you can appreciate for its workmanship and beauty and if you are a practitioner of the martial arts it is a fine blade for that as well.

 

 

My definitions are just what martial arts circles use in Australia. Whether or not that is technically right or not is another thing all together I can just understand the confusion because most people on google say one thing but you say another.

For anyone living outside of Japan who have access to blades made anywhere it would be insane to buy a Japanese shinsakuto for the prices that you are talking about. You can buy very good actual nihonto for those prices.

For $15000 dollars US and up you can get nbthk Juyo level swords http://www.aoijapan.com/japanesesword/masterpiece not to mention that you can just buy the chinese swords with a core of some sought of spring steel with a harder steel over it. That sword will never break and would snap long after a traditional sword.

My point is that for those ridiculous prices you could have a perfect cutting tool from china as well as an artsword on your shelf if you are outside Japan.

 

Another very important point that ive made before is that I have never ever seen a modern sword, even from a "national treasure" level modern smith resell for even a third to half of what it was bought for new. For me if im not going to at least get my money back then it isn't a very good business decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

For anyone living outside of Japan who have access to blades made anywhere it would be insane to buy a Japanese shinsakuto for the prices that you are talking about. You can buy very good actual nihonto for those prices.

 

That is certainly one opinion. However, a great many consider shinsakuto very good, actual nihon-to.

 

For $15000 dollars US and up you can get nbthk Juyo level swords http://www.aoijapan.com/japanesesword/masterpiece not to mention that you can just buy the chinese swords with a core of some sought of spring steel with a harder steel over it. That sword will never break and would snap long after a traditional sword.

My point is that for those ridiculous prices you could have a perfect cutting tool from china as well as an artsword on your shelf if you are outside Japan.

 

There are a good many people, thankfully, that value and appreciate modern made blades. Most of them are as good, if not better, than most older swords one is likely to come across. There are many that will in time be Juyo as well. There is no logical reason to discriminate based on age: good swords have been made in all periods and continue to be made. One may prefer an older sword but that is simply personal preference that often times reflects nothing more than a personal bias for age, romance, and other factors that are not intrinsic to the blade, but qualities in the mind of the buyer.

 

Another very important point that ive made before is that I have never ever seen a modern sword, even from a "national treasure" level modern smith resell for even a third to half of what it was bought for new.

 

I don't think you have seen many modern swords resold if that is your experience. While I would agree that ordering a newly made sword and then turning around and selling it is usually a losing venture, in my experience ordering newly made blades, they usually resell for around 75% of what they cost to order. You can call that 25% the cost of ordering to your personal specifications, much like anything made to order. Most people find considerable value in taking part in a creative process which creates something of beauty, with luck, to be passed along for posterity.

 

For me if im not going to at least get my money back then it isn't a very good business decision.

 

You are confusing collecting with investing. Most collecting isn't based on logic or profit/loss and has little in common with most business decision making.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My understanding of traditionally made swords used for ia or tameshigiri;

the tamahagane or methods used aren't necessarily inferior, it's just that the materials used are targeted more towards durability and predictability of forging rather than the activities of hada and hamon one would expect to see in an "art sword"

I don't think your sword would be inferior performance wise, you're just less likely to see the same types of activity in the steel if it were polished to an art sword level.

 

The "better" tamahagane (different composition to produce certain effects within steel) used in forging works with a higher artistic and aesthetic level that would go along with the cutting and durability of the sword made for a martial artist. I've also read part of the higher cost is that these require more time and there's more risk involved, when "pushing the envelope" the chance of a failure in quenching/creating hamon is higher.

 

 

A better sports car analogy would be a street and a track version, the track version doesn't have unnecessary things like leather upholstery, radio, or air conditioning,, etc..but what matters, the motor and suspension are the same.

 

Regards,

Lance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...