LETS BE CAREFUL with the use of Japanese nomenclature

[watsonmil]

Dear All,

I do not know quite how to approach this subject ... Japanese nomenclature verses English nomenclature when discussing the Japanese Matchlock.

I am beginning to see a trend which I am not sure is good or bad. Some here will agree with me and some will not, ... that is what discussion/debate is all about.

 

I use the word Tanegashima whenever I speak of the Japanese Matchlock, ... but another Japanese term is Teppo, or Hinawaju. You will NOT see me use the word Jita when speaking of the lock plate however, ... nor will you hear me use the word Yuojintetsu when speaking of the trigger guard.

 

Justin used a Japanese word in a previous post " Hibasami " meaning in English Serpentine. Again you will not hear me use the word unless forced to.

If the point is to show off how much one knows more than his fellow enthusiast by use of Japanese words, ... then you can count me out along with many other potential hopeful students. It JUST IS NOT NECESSARY to substitute the Japanese term for the English term in most cases. We must use judgement and a degree of caution in my opinion. Don't worry, ... I believe I know the difference between a butt protector and a shiba-hikigane ( the same item ) only English / Japanese but I doubt most of you do nor many Japanese for that matter.

 

In a recent article I described making a replacement " HIBUTA " ... pan cover for a Japanese matchlock. If I had not added the words PAN COVER to my article, how many would have by-passed the article because we are not all fluent in Japanese. Hell even the average Japanese would not have a clue what a hibuta is !

 

The point I am trying ( not sure if I'm being successful ) to make is that the over use of obscure Japanese words is a detriment to developing an interest in the Japanese Matchlock. It is on a whole a lot like the nomenclature in use by the Nihonto ( sword ) fans outdoing one another with their superior intelligence and having a SPECIAL Japanese word for every nuance ... no matter how insignificant. If you've ever spent a social evening with a group of Physicians ( God forbid ), you will get an idea of what I am speaking of. On top of everything else, ... the Japanese tend to have at least 3 words for almost everything which does not help.

 

Your thoughts and criticisms are welcome.

 

... Ron Watson

[John A Stuart]

I am getting down right schizophrenic in my answers lately, but, although when studying a foreign cultures products, one should be familiar with native nomenclature, even perhaps understanding how the derivitive occurred, when discussing them in an English speaking context, the English term if more comfortable and perfectly adequate and descriptive, would make for a more relaxed and easy atmosphere in understanding. Whatever makes for a better transfer of knowledge and ideas should be the lingua franca; whatever is the common language of the speakers. Some words by neccessity do not translate well, most do. John

[Dave R]

What a relief! In my opinion there is no doubt that some things related to Nihonto demand the use of Japanese terms,.... and some do not! But then, I am an iconoclast, and believe that the important thing is a love of, interest in, and desire to know more about Japanese blades and the broader culture. I also collect Wafuku and other antiquities associated with Edo society, and every so often have to explain common terms to Nihonto collectors..... and strangely enough they are not embarrassed by their lack of familiarity with these terms.

[Bugyotsuji]

In defense/defence of Justin, I know he has been putting his mind and energies to learning Japanese, and also Japanese terminology for J armor/armour, guns etc. I know he feels like he is banging his head against the wall much of the time and I have attempted to encourage him in his pursuit, because he has come so far. I have failed in suggesting such a refinement to him.

 

It is entirely possible that I myself have been guilty of what Ron says above. If so I apologize. May I add that it was never my intention to do so, but it is possible that I have used terminology like that forgetting to provide the English alongside. I have a golden rule that when using a word that people might not know, in all of the spoken and written translation that I do, I provide the English too. Even as I write this my ears are burning as I become sure that I must have broken this rule on many an occasion. It is never translation if a barrier is left standing. A serpentine is a 'serpentine', or a 'Hibasami serpentine'.

 

I do believe however that it is an advantage to know both sets of words, and in some cases there is no fixed English equivalent. I also make it my business to use a word that people are not familiar with slightly more often to draw attention to it.

 

"Is 'Tanegashima' really the correct word?" many people ask me. Well, the answer depends on the situation, as Ron says. In Japanese, it isn't. In my writings here and there I will often allude to a "Tanegashima-style Hinawa-Ju Japanese matchlock", and this is an attempt to help fix the most common and formal Japanese word for it, ie 'Hinawa-Ju' (match-gun) into Western people's minds. It also follows the Japanese habit of talking about such guns in a supplementary way as 'Tanegashima-style' to jog the J layman's understanding of what is being discussed.

 

Ron, thank you for bringing this up.

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

It may have come across as being a personal criticism of Justin ( not my intension ) as I believe if anyone is progressing rapidly in their understanding and appreciation of the Japanese Matchlock it would be Justin. I was only using Justin's Japanese word " hibasami " as an example. My concern is that we are all able to understand what is being discussed without either speaking or reading fluent Japanese and/or owning a copy of Shigeo Sugawa's book ... The Japanese Matchlock - A Story Of The Tanegashima - . I envy you on your capabilities in the Japanese language and I applaud Justin in his pursuit of learning Japanese. I wish I had the aptitude but sadly I do not, nor do the majority of the readers have this aptitude. I often find when reading for instance some ( certainly not all ) of the Nihonto postings that the average collector feels the study of the Japanese sword is an " Elitist pursuit " when they should not, and are afraid of being chastised and consequently do not post. That to me is sad, as this is above all a learning and sharing forum.

 

... Ron Watson

[estcrh]

Ron, would you apply that to swords as well, no more "nihonto", we will say that we are interested in Japanese swords, no more "koshirae" instead we will say scabbard, no "mei" just signature, and with armor we will say helmet instead of "kabuto", cuirass instead of dou?

[watsonmil]

Dear Eric,

No, ... once again read my post carefully. What I said was the use of OBSCURE Japanese terminology can not only cause difficulties in what is being discussed but can be can be totally unnecessary. The fact YOU may derive pleasure in deciphering the smallest detail in Japanese does not mean everybody does. There are certain words as Piers pointed out that do not lend themselves to anything other than a Japanese word. I would hasten to add that few Japanese associate the word Tanegashima with Matchlocks as Tanegashima is a place name rather than a firearm TECHNICALLY, ... yet use the word among Japanese Matchlock collectors and they instantly associate Japanese Matchlock, ... whereas the Japanese generally do not. Perhaps when I am dead and gone, the collecting of the Japanese Matchlocks will have advanced to the point where you guys will be thought of as Elitist and will use strictly Japanese words for all parts. As I said previously if you want boring and a feeling of being left out ... spend a social evening with a group of Physicians. This I can tolerate but Specialist Physicians even regular GP's find obnoxious and elitist.

 

... Ron Watson

[estcrh]

I would hasten to add that few Japanese associate the word Tanegashima with Matchlocks as Tanegashima is a place name rather than a firearm TECHNICALLY

I do see 種子島火縄銃 (tanagashima matchlock) being used in Japan to differentiate between Japanese matchlocks and non Japanese matchlocks.

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, what I commonly see and hear here is 種子島式火縄銃　Tanegashima-shiki Hinawa Ju, ie Tanegashima-style Matchlock(s).

 

(Although you can leave 'shiki' out when inserting key words in search engines.)

[Viper6924]

Love waking up to an interesting new topic, Ron! Don´t know where to start...

I fully agree that the most technical terms should be used with caution otherwise the less knowledgeable members can be left on the outside.

Which would be a great shame when this and other forums should be all about spreading knowledge be it regarding swords or matchlocks.

However, being a place where people join in to learn and to spread knowledge, I think learning the most common Japanese terms is part of that learning curve.

I´ve been interested in Japanese antiques for about 20 years. But it wasn´t until I found this place that my learning curve went straight up. These days my field of interest lies mostly somewhere between Japanese armor and matchlock. Depends on the time of day, you might say

Adding the Nihon-No-Katchu just made my life so much easier.

Still being a screaming novis in both fields, I try to the best of my abilities, to soak up every piece of new information that I come across. A part of that is of course the Japanese terminologi. This is a double edged sword. Not only is it hard learning to read the words. Learning to pronounce it is a different kind of beast.

I remember my first trip to Japan. At that time I was very much into the field of nihonto (Japanese swords) I had read a lot and learned the most basic terms describing swords. When I passed by a swordshop in Kyoto, I desided to enter. Inside sat an old man drinking a cup of tea. I was greeted with a smile and a sentence in Japanese. Panic!!! He offered me a chair and a cup of tea. In the end I spent two hours in a shop with a man who couldn´t speak a single word of english. But our common interest in Japanese swords made this meeting a success. I learned one thing in that shop. Reading a Japanese word and saying it correctly is two totally different things...

What I try to say with all this ramblings is that to fully learn/grasp the field of swords or matchlocks you must eventually dig into the more technical terms. Thats the natural way of gaining more and deeper understanding of this fascinating topic.

After about 5 years I´m ready to take that extra step. But again, in order to avoid scaring away the beginner, I think the best way is to thread carefully.

If You are using the Japanese term, best to include the english "translation". That way all levels of competence are catered for.

And by the way, I´m Swedish. I have to first translate the Japanese word into english and then retranslate it into swedish. You english-speaking members have nothing to complain about... :D :D :D

 

Jan

[IanB]

Oh how heartily I agree with Ron. European languages, and English in particular, are rich in sword, armour and gun terminology, some of which are familiar to and understood by almost all. Where such terms exist - why not use them? There are however are many instances where there is no English equivalent, or no exact parallel. There are no European words whatsoever that describe such things as hamon or yakiba, nor for the multitude of descriptive terms that describe the nuances of hada or yakiba and in these instance there is no recourse but to use Japanese. I can but applaud Justin for learning Japanese and using Japanese terms for the parts of a matchlock. Most Europeans would be mystified by terms such as 'serpentine' or 'pan' - perhaps concluding that cooking snakes is involved somewhere. I am one of those types for whom foreign language do not come easy. I can and do remember a multitude of Japanese words but using them in a sentence - aggh!!. Like Ron I suspect a few do throw out complex and sometimes very obscure terms just to impress. Good luck to them, but it only makes their writings incomprehensible and reduces the number of people who read them.

Ian Bottomley

[cabowen]

 

What I said was the use of OBSCURE Japanese terminology can not only cause difficulties in what is being discussed but can be can be totally unnecessary.

 

"Obscure" would seem to be a rather relative term as undoubtedly the more one studies the larger one's vocabulary becomes and fewer "obscurities" are encountered. Personally, I have found that while it is easier to simply use English "equivalents", learning and using the correct Japanese words often times leads to deeper insights not only into the item of study but into the language and culture as well.

[Justin Grant]

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa

 

It was not my intent to cause such a farces with my less than apropos use of "hammer" or "Serpentine", but I was simply regurgitating the word used in the previous post.

 

If I am guilty of excess hubris, it was not intentional. I am but a young student of this Japanese Matchlock, and would never intentionally use a 5 dollar word in lieu of a 3 cent word, less I look the fool I have already been cast to be, so for that, I apologize.

 

 

I will leave the education and dissection of future posts on Japanese Matchlocks to much more articulate individuals.

 

 

Justin.

[Brian]

Still being a screaming novis in both fields, I try to the best of my abilities, to soak up every piece of new information that I come across. A part of that is of course the Japanese terminologi. This is a double edged sword...

Jan,

Don't you mean ken?

 

Justin,

All I see here is light hearted debate like you would find among friends in a bar. I don't see anything negative mentioned, and certainly no criticism levelled at you. Don't take it too seriously. Somedays I find myself thinking in Japanese terminology and have to stop to think what the English words for hamon, hada, nakago etc are. We are all here for the same reason, and all just tiny parts of a huge field.

 

Brian

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Justin,

 

I enjoy your posts and have learned a lot.

 

Please don't stop contributing.

 

I come from a profession where the use of five words where one would suffice is both de rigueur and mandatory.

 

Farces, fracas, tomato, tomato....

 

 

Cheers

[IanB]

Justin, No, NO, NO!! You used exactly the correct terms for a hinawaju since the English terms that could be applied are not precise enough or are obscure. I mentioned serpentine deliberately since not that many people would have come across it and 'cock' or 'hammer' are only appropriate for flint and percussion guns respectively. Keep up the good works and master Japanese. How many opportunities I missed to learn through not mastering the grammar I shudder to think.

Ian Bottomley

[Bugyotsuji]

Agreed.

 

Justin, you are the next generation, here long after most of us old duffers have popped our clogs.

 

This thread needed to happen; you just happened to get caught in the cross-fire!

 

Please continue to contribute with renewed vigour/vigor!

[watsonmil]

Dear Justin,

You take my using your Japanese word ... " hibasami " ... as being a criticism of you personally. I thought I had explained that I was not picking on you in particular a few posts back. In the eyes of some ... it is I who is wrong, and should be not only encouraging the use of Japanese terminology but should set an example. As time goes on ( and God willing in my case ) ... we can introduce such words which are totally ( for the most part ) obscure or unintelligible to even the Nihonto enthusiasts. Many of these words are however unnecessary and have little or nothing to do with the study of the Japanese Matchlock.

 

You say : " I will leave the education and dissection of future posts on Japanese Matchlocks to much more articulate individuals. " That young man is your prerogative. It would be sad if you were not to participate as I feel you have shown an aptitude towards learning the subject and I have so stated previously. I am tired of apologizing to individuals whom feel slighted by my comments however and I am not doing so now. Whether you or I participate in this subject is totally at our own discretion. No one takes any more " flak " than myself on occasion but as of yet I have not retreated into the observer only attitude.

 

... Ron Watson

[Geraint]

Dear Justin.

 

I think I should put my hand up here, it may have been me that used the "H" word and not you. I must confess I looked it up before posting just to get it right as well.

 

Ho, hum.

[estcrh]

 

What I said was the use of OBSCURE Japanese terminology can not only cause difficulties in what is being discussed but can be can be totally unnecessary.

 

"Obscure" would seem to be a rather relative term as undoubtedly the more one studies the larger one's vocabulary becomes and fewer "obscurities" are encountered. Personally, I have found that while it is easier to simply use English "equivalents", learning and using the correct Japanese words often times leads to deeper insights not only into the item of study but into the language and culture as well.

Chris, I agree with your perspective completely, for me the act of searching for these "obscure" terms can lead to knowledge about something else, I can not count how many time I have searched for an obscure term and found something that I would not have found other wise (an image, text etc). When using these "obscure" words in a place were people are not knowledgeable on the subject I do try to add the English equivalent in brackets (...) or quotes "...".

[Baka Gaijin]

If we don't share the things we learn, things get lost, forgotten; even in a generation.

 

With respect