When did this guy work?

[Antti]

Steve,

 

Here, let me help you:

 

I wont comment on the age, but the carvings on that tsuba look terrible. I dont know much about tool use when it comes to making tsuba, but I get the impression that the maker had his chisels stolen, and was using a fairly large axe to do the job. But then again, what do I know.

 

By the way, you can edit your old posts, if you want to correct mistakes, like wrong links etc.

[bone]

Steve,

 

Here, let me help you:

 

I wont comment on the age, but the carvings on that tsuba look terrible. I dont know much about tool use when it comes to making tsuba, but I get the impression that the maker had his chisels stolen, and was using a fairly large axe to do the job. But then again, what do I know.

 

By the way, you can edit your old posts, if you want to correct mistakes, like wrong links etc.

Ah! Thank you but this same tsuba (in blue) is mounted on a 30k sword. Still *shrug* If it's worthless at least I know it's old.

[Antti]

Ah! Thank you but this same tsuba (in blue) is mounted on a 30k sword. Still *shrug* If it's worthless at least I know it's old.

 

The 'same' tsuba? Umm, can you link that for us?

[Ford Hallam]

To properly and fairly assess the success of this tsuba it's vital to have an idea as to what the artists intention was. At first glance it may seem to be a very simple and perhaps even inept bit of work but I'm immediately aware of the control that those broad sweeping cuts, that describe the leaves, exhibit. I also note the similarity of the composition and style of the image with a certain genre of Chinese ink painting.

 

This is a fairly representative painting of a type that is highly regarded by connoisseurs of Chinese art.

Zheng Sixiao (1241-1318 or 1239-1316) specialized in ink paintings of the orchid and the bamboo. This painting “Ink Orchid” (墨兰图) depicts an orchid in light ink, with its leaves evenly distributed on two sides. Although lacking in the varied poses characterizing works by later painters of orchids, it is a neat composition with every brushstroke making an impact. It also successfully adapted calligraphic brush techniques to painting. This is a representative orchid painting of the artist in his late years.

 

So rather than having had his chisels stolen

I get the impression that the maker had his chisels stolen, and was using a fairly large axe to do the job. But then again, what do I know.

this artist has been very bold in the way he has emulated this very direct and apparently effortless style of brushwork. It's actually a very skillful use of the chisel, a point that becomes more evident when we consider just how hard it might be to cut so cleanly and in such a graduated a way through a medium as tough as steel. I have, in fact seem a number of tsuba in this style, bearing the same mei, so it would appear this artist made something of a speciality of rendering this ink painting style in chiselled steel.

[Ford Hallam]

Just to add:

 

The orchid is one of the "four gentlemen" of classical paining. The other 3 being bamboo, chrysanthemum and plum. Each represents various virtues and a season. In the case of the orchid spring is suggested and a simple understated beauty.

 

You can watch this film to get an idea of the ink painting style this tsuba emulates in chiselled steel.

 

[Jean]

Ford wrote:

 

classical paining

 

It hurts but it is good

[Antti]

But then again, what do I know.

 

Should have stayed quiet

[Ford Hallam]

old eagle eyed Jean :D

 

Antti, don't feel too bad, I think many newcomers (and even old hands) may not have evaluated this tsuba in the way I've just described. But I hope I've illustrated with this example just how important it is to have a thorough grounding in the broader Japanese art story. As I repeatedly write, to properly evaluate any work of art we need to understand it's context and the intentions of the artist. We can't rely on our of sense of good taste or personal preferences, the art of eras past are foreign cultures to us all so to even begin to see it accurately we need to learn their language.

[bone]

Ah! Thank you but this same tsuba (in blue) is mounted on a 30k sword. Still *shrug* If it's worthless at least I know it's old.

 

The 'same' tsuba? Umm, can you link that for us?

 

http://sinogi.dee.cc/katarogu/2301/juou ... 04503.html

 

I'm not sure where I got the number 30k. It's been a while. Still nice one...

[bone]

Ummm guys? Can anyone hazard a guess as to when this person worked? laugh We've never got to that part.

Ah! Nevermind. I'm guessing it's showa the same as the one in the link. Though I think mine looks better.

[sanjuro]

Can anyone hazard a guess as to when this person worked?

 

Would you be happy with this assessment? It is if nothing else fairly safe from correction by Ford. :D .....Ooooops sorry, I mean MR HALLAM

 

Sunrise to sunset, probably seven days a week.

[bone]

Can anyone hazard a guess as to when this person worked?

 

Would you be happy with this assessment? It is if nothing else fairly safe from correction by Ford. :D .....Ooooops sorry, I mean MR HALLAM

 

Sunrise to sunset, probably seven days a week.

 

happy sigh Yah. If Mr. Hallam is satisfied I'm ecstatic.

[Antti]

I must say I am still slightly baffled about this tsuba. This is one of those situations when you think you know a little bit about something, and realize you do not. I usually keep my mouth shut when it comes to quality, because I've thought it would be arrogant for a newbie to comment on these matters. And well, because I do not like being wrong, especially if everyone can see it happening. I made the exception this time, as I was pretty much sure I was right about this.

 

Well, no problem, this is a great learning opportunity no less.

 

I have spent about an hour during the last day just looking at it, and trying to absorb something, but my efforts are in vain. Usually I tend to understand why someone appreciates something, even if I do not. This usually applies to everything (except NASCAR). Even if something does not appeal to me, I can at least understand what the appeal is. Some of my friends like muscle cars, I do not, but I do understand the appeal. But I simply won't seem to be able to appreciate this tsuba. My newcomer-impression is still the same as my first impression, and this is dangerous, because as a man collecting on a very small budget, I am always hunting for bargains, and if this tsuba would have been for sale for 10€, I would have ignored it without a second look, and well... still would.

[bone]

I wise man once wrote; Our failures are more important than our successes. Our successes let us revel in the moment. Our failures give us reason to fight, to search and to finally become greater as we turn failure to success. And in that we can revel for life.

 

For the longest time I felt the same way about Picasso. The paintings I saw were all strange and made no sense at all to me. I determined to understand why he was considered such a genius. So I researched his work from the early to the late and finally had that eureka moment. This led me to, if not always understand, to appreciate all the impressionists. Over the years this has given me great pleasure.

 

Listen to Mr. Hallam. The only way to truly understand Japanese art and culture is to be immersed in it and study it for a very long time. His understanding of the art of the tsuba is in no small part that he makes them the way the Japanese do. And is probably the best at his craft in the world right now. Don't bother studying this one piece. Study everything. Read everything you can. Listen to the greatest experts on the planet many of whom reside here to our great delight. And one day you'll have that eureka moment. Many of them actually.

[Antti]

Steve,

 

Wise words indeed.

I've been interested in iron tsuba for the last 2 years and bought my first tsuba over a year ago. It has become a big part of my life. Never before have I experienced so much passion for anything.

 

It is certainly true that you learn new things, different styles and schools become appealing as you study them and the way your eye starts to notice new things when you look at pieces. Over time, I've learn to appreciate so many things. From the appealing simplicity of ko-Tosho, to the flowing themes of Akasaka to the feature-rich iron on Yamakichibei. I've learned so many things, and found that my taste is constantly, if incrementally, evolving. Even if I do not find certain schools interesting, I can somewhat grasp the appeal that people find in them. Namban for example, does not appeal to me at all, but when I see a good piece, I can understand why some people like them. To be truthful I've never had a Eureka-moment, it is all incremental and happens over time.

 

I try to read as much as I can. I have, for example, read through the entire collection of topics in the Tosogu forum, so I am well aware of the awesome expertise this forum contains. I am also a big fan of mr. Hallam, who's work I admire greatly. I recently had the privilege to hold in my hand a... 'Ko-mr.Hallam', in the form of his old kinko Flamingo tsuba, in a collector's meeting a week back.

 

However, amidst all the topics I've read, this is the first tsuba, that I cannot get my head around, on pretty much any level. Therefore, to take advantage of the expertise in this forum, I would like to hear opinions about this tsuba from other experienced collectors as well, and see their impressions. What you said about failure is true, but one must always understand why he failed to gain anything from it. And that is what I am trying to do here.

[cabowen]

It isn't flashy and isn't aspiring to something lofty, but it succeeds with me in its simplicity, the suggestion of distance, the rather unusual depiction of orchids.

[Brian]

Not really embarrased to say that if I saw this tsuba on a table for $100, I would pass.

Sorry, but the technique does nothing for me. Neither does the supposed "simplicity"

Nor the groundwork or the iron. I see little redeeming in it, and don't equate it to the Chinese paintings which we have see discussed many times before. To me, this is something that someone did when he was starting out as a tsubako.

Having read Ford's analysis, I am happy to be wrong if this is my own lacking in appreciation and aesthetic understanding. Doesn't change anything. Not for me, thanks.

 

Brian

[Tanto54]

Dear Antti,

 

I have been collecting and studying Nihonto and many other Japanese arts for almost 40 years, and I agree with you on this tsuba - nothing special in terms of composition, technique, simplicity, aesthetics, etc.. I must applaud your courage to speak your mind in the face of such authoritative opposition. While I almost always agree with Mr. Hallam’s aesthetic, I often disagree with some of the other experts who like this tsuba. Naturally, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but just because someone knows a lot about swords, doesn’t mean that their tastes are refined, normal, Japanese, or even good... For example, one man might like a stone wall where the differently-sized stones are lined up like cans of peas on a supermarket shelf, even though most would find the more customary Japanese approach of carefully arranging the stones in a “random” pattern much more aesthetically appealing. Such experts might also find a tsuba to be too “non-Japanese” or lacking in composition and nevertheless a panel of Japanese experts may select that very same tsuba for a high prize. Study and grow but trust your instincts and stick to your guns because sometimes the emperor simply has no clothes.

[Antti]

Thank you Brian and George for your input. I am glad to see I'm not the only one who cannot find a way to appreciate this tsuba. Even if we are wrong, it is nice to be wrong in good company.

 

It is sometimes said that Jazz can only be appreciated by people who play an instrument. I wonder if it is the same thing here.

[watsonmil]

Dear Antti,

I'm with Ford, and Chris on this one, ... I find the simplicity very attractive. I've always preferred my women to be without makeup, ... so I do not find overly done up flashy tsuba terribly appealing. It is all a matter of taste. I would happily own such an example and display it. Thanks for posting.

... Ron Watson

[Antti]

Thank you mr. Watson. It is funny that this tsuba seems to evoke a very broad range of impressions.

I too like my women as I like my tsuba. Without makeup but preferrably with a nice patina.

[bone]

My judgment is, of course, clouded by the fact that I own this piece. That being said I agree that simple agrees with me more than gaudy which many tsuba I consider to be. Still... I can see the beauty in the complexity of a finely wrought tsuba. Fords evaluation made me take a second and third look at my piece. The fine use of the chisel to go from wide to thin in very hard steel is very obviously a skill that a beginner would be unlikely to have. Still congratulations Atti. You're not really wrong about this, you just don't find this style attractive as obviously many others with lot's of experience agree.

[Ford Hallam]

Chaps, :D

 

My analysis of this piece was merely to help seeing less obvious works in a more fair light. I didn't intend to imply that this is by any stretch a masterpiece or even worthy of your respect.

 

All I wanted to show was that we need to take a more considered view of such tsuba.

 

Anatti's point about jazz may well be a good one. I do actually see metalwork differently because I do it myself but that's exactly what I'm trying to share. I get a different sense of the makers because of my own intimate involvement with our shared craft.

 

Connoisseurship is about judgement separate from our own personal tastes. And the discipline of trying to see the qualities in works that may not resonate with is a very good start. There are, of course, some pieces that are completely lacking in redeeming qualities but my feeling is that too many, like this tsuba, are dismissed because they don't tick all the 'kantei points'.

 

Frankly, kantei points are irrelevant when making aesthetic judgements.

[Antti]

Who is K Morichi?

 

Brian

 

Still congratulations Atti.

Anatti's point about jazz may well be a good one.

 

Who is Atti or Anatti?

 

-ANTTI

 

:lol:

[watsonmil]

Dear Sir,

Anatti or Atti is better than Aunty, ... Antti !

... Ron Watson

[cabowen]

There can be no doubt that a craftsman/artist, take Ford for example, will see these from a different perspective and perhaps value them using different criteria as well. As Ford mentioned, this piece displays a certain sophistication of technique and composition perhaps not so readily apparent to those who have not held a chisel or have familiarity with other aspects of Japanese art aesthetics.

 

I don't think either Ford or myself have tried to build this humble tsuba up into something it is not, rather, we have tried to highlight some of the subtleties that differentiate it from rank amateur work, as someone has commented. The simplicity, as seen in the economy of line and the field of depth, and the execution, succeed in evoking a sumi-e/zen-ga feel. Being a big fan of sumi-e in general, and zen-ga in particular, I enjoy it- not as a masterwork, but as a simply, honest, unpretentious work that, while not aiming high, does hits its mark nicely.

 

Of course, we all have our own tastes and, thankfully, they can and do differ. There is a difference, however, in poo-pooing something because it isn't to our taste, i.e., for subjective reasons, and doing so on objective grounds. The latter I think is what hooked both Ford and myself into the conversation.

[bone]

Who is K Morichi?

 

Brian

 

Still congratulations Atti.

Anatti's point about jazz may well be a good one.

 

Who is Atti or Anatti?

 

-ANTTI

 

:lol:

 

Sorry Anthill. I'm terrible with names. I just wanted you to know I respected your views. Not like I know what I'm talking about. That's why I depend on these guys.

[Antti]

Sorry Anthill. I'm terrible with names. I just wanted you to know I respected your views. Not like I know what I'm talking about. That's why I depend on these guys.

 

No problems Dave. It happens.

[bone]

Sorry Anthill. I'm terrible with names. I just wanted you to know I respected your views. Not like I know what I'm talking about. That's why I depend on these guys.

 

No problems Dave. It happens.

Ok. Best thread ever.

[Marius]

Thoroughly enjoyed this thread. Gents, thanks for your sense of humour :D