How long did it take....?

[JH Lee]

Wasn't sure if this belonged in the Izakaya lounge-- But the question is Nihonto related.

 

How long did it take for you to become a reasonably proficient/knowledgeable collector?

 

Yes... I realize that "proficient" and "knowledgeable" are subjective, relative terms, and probably the time frame depends on other variables like interest, opportunity, natural talent, and personal dedication. Still, I would appreciate very much hearing from your personal experiences.

 

The reason I am asking is because I find myself utterly overwhelmed and, frankly, severely discouraged by the mountains of information ahead of me. I could imagine this being an academic field in its own right, with the terminal degree being a PhD, with MA-level specialties for every aspect of the sword and koshirae. I thought I was finally getting a handle on just being able to name the different hamon types at a glance, and distinguishing nie from nioi, appreciating utsuri, etc.... but then, I couldn't even visually identify what sunagashi or kinsuji was and was ready to give up on a sword because I thought they meant a terrible flaw. Who knows? Maybe what I thought was utsuri was actually evidence of poor quenching or over-hardening.

 

And today, I realized that just understanding menuki... all the different schools, styles, makers throughout history.... not to mention evaluating their current condition and distinguishing modern/artificial from authentic/"natural" patination on kodogu....

 

Maybe I should just leave this expertise to the experts. I think I'm a reasonably intelligent fellow. But I already have a day job (which I'm proud to say I am very good at)... not sure if I could ever develop the level of knowledge that seasoned collectors and dealers on NMB have, unless I could invest huge amount of time and effort to learning. And so, I am hoping to get a sense of the scale of that time/effort required.

 

Moderator, please feel free to relocate this thread if it doesn't belong here.

[John A Stuart]

You have posed a question that most probably dealt with before. Having a good foundation in these aspects is necessary to really understand what makes one sword more desirable than another. The amount of detailed study is a matter of desire and need. How much information do you need beyond the basics to appreciate a particular piece? You can limit yourself by focusing on a particular field within the study until comfortable with that and then diversify later if you want. Too, you don't need to be able to quote lineages and schools etc. to be able to admire quality and craftmanship. If something takes your fancy, investigate that to the level you feel satisfies you curiosity. If you feel that the study is becoming tedious, put it aside for a bit, come back when refreshed, it isn't a race and there are no quizzes. Enjoiyment is the base reason for this hobby and if that deserts you, it would be a crying shame. John

[Brian]

I found that my brain was full, and wasn't able to learn much new info or make much progress.

So I took over admin of a Nihonto forum and let others to the work for me

Seriously though..not a day goes by that I don't feel overwelmed and in over my head with this hobby. It is huge, and I envy those with the mindset to go all out. But when I think I know nothing, I find myself surprising myself by knowing the names of parts or some wierd fact that I didn't know.

You only have to watch the forum to see members who were asking questions last year are now the ones answering them for other novices.

Stick with it. We are all beginners here.

 

Brian

[watsonmil]

Dear John L.

The definition of an EXPERT : Someone who knows more and more about less and less. Now if you've ever spent an evening with two Medical Doctors let alone Specialist Medical Doctors ... then you'll know what I mean. They are so narrow minded and focused on ONE THING ( medicine ) that they generally have little or none of the character traits that one expects of good company or conversation. I have been studying Japanese Antiques ( not limiting myself to Nihonto however ) for well over 30 years ( make that closer to 40 years ) and I often find the NMB somewhat elitist, arrogant, and abusive. May you never become such an individual. Rather enjoy the Japanese Sword as well as other aspects of Japanese Art. As John Stuart put it study an example you may own or a school that catches your fancy, .... or develop a general knowledge of the Sword. It is not a prerequisite to be an EXPERT to enjoy some art form. It is a prerequisite to enjoy the educational experience of learning and the beauty of an object however no matter what level of expertise you attain.

 

... Ron Watson

[nagamaki - Franco]

When it comes to nihonto it's just when you begin to think you finally know something is about the time you begin to discover just how little you really know. This comes even after years of experience and that seems to be part of the challenge which draws one into this hobby or discipline depending how far it takes you.

[runagmc]

I agree with the comments made. It should not be seen as a race by new students, OR old students. People should be allowed to hold different levels of interest, but at the same time, some of the more experienced can't be forced, or even expected, to hand over knowledge gained through years of study and dedication.

 

Learn and collect for yourself, and you either will progress and enjoy it, or won't progress and find that you have other more important priorities. Either way, I agree you seem like a smart person, and if you have the interest and can find the time to study, I have no doubt you will know a good bit after 3-5 years...

 

However, the topic is a bottomless pit... especially for gaijin... ... We are at a huge disadvantage from the start...

 

Edit to say, the disadvantage grows the less money and free time you have...

[b.hennick]

Nothing beats the hands-on study of good to great swords. Books are fine for looking things up but guided learning or shared learning is what you need. Sword shows are a great place to see and handle swords. If done respectfully, one can learn a lot from more seasoned collectors. Let them know that you can't buy now but are trying to learn and your honesty will be rewarded by most. If they treat you well, you may become a future customer.

Books are a must to get over the terminology and learn the basics.

In my case, I read what was available, joined the Japanese Sword Society of the United States (JSSUS), went to shows, met collectors, joined study groups, made presentations and wrote articles. All helped along the way. The trip to Japan allowed me to handle wonderful top level swords. (see topic viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17273) I would not have been invited if I had not put in the time to learn and get to know the sword community.

How long?- after 20 years I considered myself an official beginner. My first sword was bought in 1976. I studied martial arts since 1960. I think of a shodan (first degree black belt) as an official beginner. To me and to many others the study of nihonto is a life time activity.

In the beginning, you think that you know nothing, after a few years everything is crystal clear and you think that you know a lot, after a few more years you think that you know nothing once again. Now I know some things but I still ask advice from my seniors. Learning takes work! You have to devote time effort and money to get on in this field.

One final bit of advice - try to get a mentor who can show you things and teach you things.

[Stephen]

short answer, you never get there.

[Jean]

I don't know a lot on Nihonto, so what I focus on is quality. Quality is fundamental, a good exercise is to sort blades according to their forging qualities. After, fundamental, as told Barry, find a mentor, here also qualty is a key word. Find the right one. Too many flashy ones but without any real knowledge but book ones.

Be aware that nihonto knowledge has tremendously increased in the last 20 years. Study top blades but with mentors.

 

I know a few non Japanese experts (they don't claim to be one). Impressive they are and they all had teachers.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Jean makes a couple of good points, John. For many years, I bought blades that were mediocre at best, & had trouble learning much from them as "study pieces." But when I finally found a mentor who had top-quality blades, my understanding took a quantum leap, & I'm now slowly selling off my "just okay" blades & buying higher-level Nihonto.

 

It also helps if you can develop a "focus" on what interests you. A trip to Japan a couple of years ago took my wife & me to Okayama where fellow NMB member Piers brought us to meet several local swordsmiths & to visit the Bizen-Osafune Sword Village. We now are focused on Bizen blades, which helps me to not get quite as distracted by the beautiful Yamato & Yamashiro swords that I come across.

 

Ken

[Bazza]

Well John H Lee, a perennial topic!! I like Barry Hennick’s “after 20 years I considered myself an official beginner.” In this discussion we must remember for the Silverbacks that 50 years ago when I began there was no internet, only international airmail - and expensive international phone calls if you really needed to hear a friendly Nihontô voice. I still have a filing cabinet bulging with copies of correspondence with people all over the world. I was quite amazed to have a well-known American collector write he was just as isolated in his hometown as I was in Australia. An early correspondent was Willis Hawley when I bought his books very early on, plus others he sold. Today is truly another story.

 

Well, without writing an essay here are the nuts and bolts. John Yumoto’s little book stole me away from the world of guns. My first two swords were a Showatô Kaiguntô and a mumei Sue Kotô in Shinguntô. John Yumoto’s book, and Basil Robinson’s, take you only so far in this interest. Being the only person I knew of in Nihontô here in Oz it took me 8 years to discover that my first Sue Koto blade had no hamon where it was supposed to be. So I went looking and found it close to the edge, with a hadori making the ‘white’ yakiba look more in proportion. That was a seminal experience in evaluating swords. Like Jean (he is far too modest!!) I tried to figure out what quality was. That answer came 7 years later.

 

So in short I say to those who ask that it took me about 10 years to begin to understand what Nihontô were about, and another 5 years to begin to understand what quality was. The intervening 35 years have been devoted to expanding my knowledge wherever possible, often at the expense of time spent with my “sword widow” long-suffering wife. I had to get that tribute to my wife in the story.

 

In all this time I bought books wherever I could (hang the expense!!) and joined corresponding societies wherever I could. I have filing cabinets still bulging with Newsletter and Journals from all over the world. I haven’t looked at any of them in a couple of decades, so they must have served their purpose well.

 

The other very important thing was to look at swords wherever I could and the best way to this was to seek out other collectors in Oz. There weren’t many in those Auld Daze. In turn, beginning collectors sought me out and I could return all the favours given to me by others. So, having reached some sort of proficiency level along comes NMB and I find myself in awe of the far greater knowledge and talent here and of the willingness to share and help that I have experienced throughout my collecting life.

 

Perhaps the last thing is money. Like many I’ve never had a lot, but I never cared about it or “profit”. I could only think of the spell-binding Art of the Sword and of increasing my knowledge even without ever owning some of the best. In monetary terms I’m sure one way and another I’ve paid out more than I’ll ever get back from my small collection. The enjoyment and the journey, however, have been priceless...

 

Ah, truly John H. Lee, on reflection I think the last word is FRIENDS. The point I think in this thread is that you have arrived amongst many friends. It will take you weeks to read up on the stack of threads and the articles section. My best and closest friends have always been collectors, more especially Nihontô collectors.

 

I think, John, there is indeed a last thing I could comment on. You wrote “I could imagine this being an academic field in its own right, with the terminal degree being a PhD, with MA-level specialties for every aspect of the sword and koshirae.” In the above I haven’t touched on polish - discussion here would make this an essay!!. I have come to regard tôgishi as people with an equivalent PhD. With regard to being an academic field in its own right there are people (Westerners) in our midst with advanced degrees in niche studies of Nihontô arts. It has taken me 14 years to acquire this man’s book, so to me the most recent illustration of the “academic field in its own right” is Gregory Irvine’s book “The Japanese Sword” (Weatherhill, 2000). His acknowledgements page neatly sums up what it takes to become a specialist in study of the Japanese sword arts.

 

Welcome John.

 

Best regards,

Barry Thomas

(aka BaZZa.)

[paulb]

An alternative definition of an expert to Ron's X= unknown quantity spert the equivalent to a big drip!

I think many who have already written at length make very good points. There is a certain masochisitic tendancy in someone who decides to study a subject where the best examples are thousands of miles away, literature is written in a language they dont understand and uses terminology that is a mystery even to modern native speakers. Thats where most of us are.

Having said that I embarked on this route some 30 years ago and it has been amongst the most enjoyable and rewarding of my life. I still regard myself as a beginner and probably always will. I have enjoyed looking at examples of what George Cameron Stone descirbed as "The nearest thing to perfection made by human hand". More importantly i have made many good friends throughout the world shared many great conversations and learned an immense amount.

Will I make a profit when I or my family sell my swords? probably not, Would I do it all again? absolutely. But I am sure that as long as I go on I will always learn something new.

[JH Lee]

Thank you for all of your insights and feedback, everyone. I am really humbled by the level of knowledge that some of you have achieved-- while still considering yourselves mere beginners. Ordinarily, I might cynically assume that such is mere pretense/faux humility; but having gotten a glimpse of just what is actually involved... I realize that they could be regarded as understatements. I hope to one day meet some of you at a sword show.

[Edfest]

How long...?

 

About a month... Pretty straight forward.

 

:lol:

 

I sympathize with your sense of frustration!

 

I'm just trying to accomplish little steps. Reading a book, trying to retain a bit, then reading it again, etc.

 

From everyones responses, it seems to be about the journey, and less the destination.

 

Ed M

[Peter Bleed]

John,

I believe that there are some true experts in the world, but they are rare and hard to find. The next step down is terribly easy to reach. You can become that kind of an expert by showing up with a little brass hammer, sucking your teeth a lot, and becoming capably of saying things like, "I think it is Kane something".

If you can avoid all of that, the good part is making some friends, developing a reputation for good companionship (and honesty), and getting lucky. Relax, have a good time. And best of luck!

Peter

[Pete Klein]

John -- please watch this wonderful movie: One shot - One Life @ https://www.emptymindfilms.com/ You can rent it at this site.

 

Especially envelope the man toward the end of the film. Everything you need to know is in his psyche.

 

Pete Klein

[Guido]

... some of the more experienced can't be ... expected to hand over knowledge gained through years of study and dedication.

I disagree. What good does all the knowledge gained do if one isn't willing to pass it on to the next generation? That's what this forum is all about. In my experience, people who claim to have some "secret knowledge" are simply living off this myth, hiding their actual lack of knowledge behind it.

 

I also would caution against the impulse to take comments at face value because the poster is into swords / fittings for a long time. There are quite a few old-timers who were ahead of the crowd in the sixties and seventies- the one-eyed is king among the blind - but never advanced their knowledge, and are resting on their laurels ever since.

[b.hennick]

Well said Guido. The true student or teacher never stops learning. Resting on your laurels means no growth.

[cabowen]

I agree with Guido and offer my own experiences as proof:

 

I attended sword shows in Chicago back in the 1980's while in college. I had gone as far as all the books I could get could take me and was really excited to finally see some great swords and meet the "experts". It was quite a hurtful experience to have all my questions dissed or ignored and to basically be told "run along kid, you are bothering me" by these "experts"...I just couldn't understand why they wouldn't share with someone who was sincere in his desire to learn.

 

About 10 years later, after I had lived in Japan for a few years, I would get phone calls and letters from these same people who had ignored me, asking ME questions! It was at that point that I finally understood why they wouldn't give me the time of day and share their knowledge- the fact was they had precious little to share. It was all bluff and bluster...

 

I had the occasion to meet some of these same people at small sword gatherings over the following 10-15 years and while they continued to enjoy their status as "experts", it was obvious they still wore no clothes....

 

I had quite the opposite experience in Japan, where people went above and beyond on a regular basis to help me. I found that sincerity and earnestness will open almost any door in Japan. I carry a tremendous debt to these people and my way of repaying it is to share what they so selflessly shared with me. I encourage everyone, no matter your level, to take the time to share whatever you can with those that seek knowledge. Passing along knowledge (education) is essential to cultivate interest and to secure a safe future for the art.

[seattle1]

Hello:

What an interesting thread prompted by Mr. Lee's question, and what a useful offering of responses! There is little I would disagree with and little I could add, however perhaps a little nudge of extrapolation from Mr. Lee's question might be helpful. My dictionary defines a connoisseur as follows: "...n., person having competent judgment in art and other matters of taste." I believe that is the end to which the sought sword knowledge is directed. The advice given makes clear that the road is long and steep, and winding and endless. Most of the advice given stresses the ways to attain the "competent judgment," but sets no benchmark as to knowing when one has arrived at a reasonable state of competence. An economist would say that the advice and discussion focuses on inputs, whereas the goal, competence, is an output. How does one know when that threshold has been crossed?

There is no litmus test, and we can only infer attainment by the product of that knowledge. There are some really excellent connoisseurs outside of Japan - and for fear of omitting anyone, I can only say that some of the discussions of blades, smiths, traditions, etc. heard at the various so called meibutsu dialogues held at the sword shows are really so excellent that I am really taken aback and reminded of how little I know in comparison. There are also Western collectors, sometimes dealers, who have made real advances in our written understanding of the sword. Some of those articles go back for decades, others we see regularly in publications of the different sword clubs, particularly those of the JSS/US. We rarely hold kantei contests in the West, but there again, those who consistently score well, surely are competent connoisseurs of the sword. We even have one American, probably known to most NMB followers, who actually won a major Japanese NBTHK kantei contest, and that has to be very impressive. It should be a regular fixture of all the major shows for there to be a kantei contest, as there are undoubtedly many collectors "who have the knowledge" and who would score well, perhaps even surprising themselves!

I do believe that there really are two qualitatively different and distinct groups who might be said to have gotten to the level of competent judgment: those that can read the relevant Japanese language literature and those who cannot. In recent years translation projects of the JSS/US and the translations available through the NBTHK, American Branch, have really opened Japanese language material with an outpouring of useful information, however translations only scratch the surface, and to be able to read, without limitation, the mountain of existing Japanese language material puts one at a distinctly higher level, at least potentially. Fortunately the useful writings of many Japanese scholars are available in translation, at least in part, and for that we must be very thankful. To mention just a few: Honnami Koson, Fujishiro Matsuo, Homma Junji (Kunzan), Sato Kanichi (Kanzan), Yoshikawa Koen, Tanobe Michihiro (Tanzan), will continue to teach as long as there is the printed word.

Arnold F.

[cabowen]

... It should be a regular fixture of all the major shows for there to be a kantei contest...

 

Arnold F.

 

Not to derail this thread, but I couldn't agree more...Kantei is the major tool used in Japan for instruction. One learns not only to differentiate periods and schools, but levels of quality as well. It is beyond me why this has not become a regular feature of US sword shows.

[b.hennick]

Kantei is a regular feature at the Toronto sword club and the Rochester club when it was running. We tend to do a team Kantei so that beginners can understand the reasoning and seniors learn to articulate their thought process.

[seattle1]

Hello:

I ought to have mentioned that kantei contests do not have to be limited to shows, as they can be your "test" in print as well. The old English language Token Bijutsu of the NBTHK had such contests, with winning names published in the following issue, and both of the versions of the Nihon Token Hozon Kai, that of Yoshikawa Eichi, and NTHK (NPO) have very useful similar contests. They are worth the cost of subscription alone!

Arnold F.

[Pete Klein]

The NBTHK-AB holds kantei at most shows already and has for years now. The Chicago show for the last four years has had a 'Shinsa' where participants are grouped and given examples of swords and fittings to 'kantei' and assign point valuations. It is run by Mike Yamasaki of the NBTHK-AB (for free) but this year as Mike could not attend there was a kantei followed by a lecture given by Nick Kolick, all Juyo and TB Juyo from what I understand. (I got stuck with watching the tables at the show so couldn't attend but then I got to see them behind the tables at my leasure! :D ) There are some occasions where there is a fittings only exhibit but that is the exception rather than the rule.

 

Arnold -- the NBTHK still has monthly kantei in their 'Token Bijutsu' publication which comes with membership. You can access the results here:

 

http://www.touken.or.jp/english/translation1.html

[seattle1]

Hello:

Excellent Pete. Thanks for the information. It is easy to lose track of who is doing what as some of those things go in fits and starts. The NBTHK discussion is great, but doesn't the kantei theme require an oshigata and physical description?

Arnold F.

[cabowen]

A traditional kantei is run a bit differently than those I have seen done in the US. Normally, several items are put out for in-hand inspection. Each participant views the items and then submits a bid for the maker. The judge then either accepts the guess, or returns it with a note (wrong period, wrong "road", etc. and the participant has another chance, based on the feedback, to try again. At the end of the allotted time, the answers are given and the judge discusses each blade, the guesses made, and the merits/demerits of the more popular wrong guesses.

 

Not only do you need good swords but you need expert judges who can quickly reply to the guesses with the appropriate note to help guide the participants.

[Pete Klein]

Arnold -- to clarify, the kantei example oshigata is pictured in the 'Token Bijutsu' magazine each month with description/hints. Non-Japanese readers can access the English translation on line at the link provided in my post above. The answer is provided I believe three months later. If you click on the above link and choose a month you will see the description area toward the top and the answer to a previous kantei at the bottom page. The magazine is provided via membership.

[estcrh]

Kantei is the major tool used in Japan for instruction. One learns not only to differentiate periods and schools, but levels of quality as well. It is beyond me why this has not become a regular feature of US sword shows.

 

I think you answered your own question with this statement.

 

Not only do you need good swords but you need expert judges who can quickly reply to the guesses with the appropriate note to help guide the participants.

[cabowen]

Kantei is the major tool used in Japan for instruction. One learns not only to differentiate periods and schools, but levels of quality as well. It is beyond me why this has not become a regular feature of US sword shows.

 

I think you answered your own question with this statement.

 

Not only do you need good swords but you need expert judges who can quickly reply to the guesses with the appropriate note to help guide the participants.

 

 

You are probably right....I would like to think though that there are a few people capable of this in the West....

[runagmc]

I disagree. What good does all the knowledge gained do if one isn't willing to pass it on to the next generation? That's what this forum is all about. In my experience, people who claim to have some "secret knowledge" are simply living off this myth, hiding their actual lack of knowledge behind it.

 

I also would caution against the impulse to take comments at face value because the poster is into swords / fittings for a long time. There are quite a few old-timers who were ahead of the crowd in the sixties and seventies- the one-eyed is king among the blind - but never advanced their knowledge, and are resting on their laurels ever since.

 

Hi Guido, I'm happy to hear you feel strongly about this, as you were one of those with more experience I had in mind when making the comment. Maybe you're right that the reason some of the seemingly most experienced members don't share is because they don't know as much as they lead others to believe... or maybe they just don't have the time... I don't know.

 

I look at someone like Chris Bowen (who I have never met, or had a one on one dialogue with... so I'm non-biased), who is constantly a part of meaningful discussion on the board, as a good example of someone who goes above what can be expected as far as sharing knowledge (there are certainly others as well).

 

There are other supposedly experienced students who never, or rarely, offer up their knowledge. Their reasons are their own, and while I wish they would participate however they can, I can't force, or expect them to, because I don't know why they choose not to. Then there are some who push others to go find the answer for themselves.

 

Anyway, I have learned from many more experienced on the board who have taught selflessly, without their ego constantly getting in their way, and to them I am thankful.