Opinions On My Antique Sword-Kamakura Kodachi

[Jim P]

Hi Nathan, recommendations yes, look at the top of page. Links. Restoration. and maybe have a think if you want to have (quality modern materials)or old parts mixed with new eg, fittings-tsuba,menuki,fuchikashira. preferable to most collectors than all modern materials

[Marius]

Nathan,

 

for what purpose - decoration, iaido, tameshigiri? Should the koshirae be more on the decorative or practical side?

[ancientnoob]

Nathan,

 

for hat purpose - decoration, iaido, tameshigiri? Should the koshirae be more on the decorative or practical side?

I would prefer one set that would cover all of the above. I favor practical over decorative. I do not plan on spending $10000 on antique what not for it. Sure I would like that but this collector does not have it.

 

Nathan M.

[Marius]

I would prefer one set that would cover all of the above. I favor practical over decorative.

 

I see. That will cost you at least twice the value of your sword.

[ancientnoob]

I would prefer one set that would cover all of the above. I favor practical over decorative.

 

I see. That will cost you at least twice the value of your sword.

What's the value of the sword in your opinion?

[Marius]

Nathan,

 

its value is what a buyer would be prepared to pay for it :lol:

 

But if you want a price that I would pay... $1,500 or maybe less. Please understand, that is only MY view of its value - an out of polish and (most likely) gimei Muromachi katana without shirasaya. I presume fuchigashira and menuki are not of the highest quality?

 

If I wanted to have it polished, that's $2k plus shipping, add shirasaya for $600. So I would arrive at a price of $3,100 for an average Muromachi uchigatana. And there are risks involved - who knows what flaws will be revealed in the polish?

 

So, there we are. I think you won't be able to have any kind of decent decent made for less than $3,000.

[ancientnoob]

That's incredible, this just seems entirely cost prohibitive. I can't speak of the quality of existing fittings as I have nothing to compare them too. I'm not really into flashy. At this point I would skip the polish and go for the Koshirae.

 

 

Nathan M.

 

PS:

 

@$1500 I am still hell'a in the good, that makes me happy. In 50 years when my son goes to sell it, it might be at a value where I wouldn't feel inclined to haunt him.

[cabowen]

If I wanted to have it polished, that's $2k plus shipping, add shirasaya for $600. So I would arrive at a price of $3,100 for an average Muromachi uchigatana.

 

Most polishers charge at least $100US per inch, so you are looking at closer to $3000 just for the polish.

[loiner1965]

Jean,

Admittedly I had to use the spoiler, I saw no difference in example #2 and my specimen. You for sure know better than I. I am still I clover to when, where and who. I suppose I have no choice but have the experts look at it in hand. It's very fustrating to look at two swords that appear exactly the same and be told they are different. Then to google more examples and believe they are same and am told they are noticeably different. I fail to understand, don't get me wrong, I believe you. For someone who is an analytical chemist and makes a living telling apart minute differences it's a double kick in the chops. I certainly appreciate you guys time and effort.

Nathan

Nathan. These guys are the bees knees when discussing nihonto so any advice they give is based on years of experience that we could only dream of.

I for one are always thankful when they give advice

Like you say we do not see what they see and it is frustrating

Nice sword none the less

[ancientnoob]

If I wanted to have it polished, that's $2k plus shipping, add shirasaya for $600. So I would arrive at a price of $3,100 for an average Muromachi uchigatana.

 

Most polishers charge at least $100US per inch, so you are looking at closer to $3000 just for the polish.

 

Yea, my internet searching and the few folks I spoke to confirm the huge figures. Has anyone realized this hobby is not contusive to the average middle class collector? We are talking figures akin to a used car. A life long study, for a lifelong investment. I might have to piecemeal this over the next couple of years.

 

Nathan M.

[ancientnoob]

Jean,

Admittedly I had to use the spoiler, I saw no difference in example #2 and my specimen. You for sure know better than I. I am still I clover to when, where and who. I suppose I have no choice but have the experts look at it in hand. It's very fustrating to look at two swords that appear exactly the same and be told they are different. Then to google more examples and believe they are same and am told they are noticeably different. I fail to understand, don't get me wrong, I believe you. For someone who is an analytical chemist and makes a living telling apart minute differences it's a double kick in the chops. I certainly appreciate you guys time and effort.

Nathan

Nathan. These guys are the bees knees when discussing nihonto so any advice they give is based on years of experience that we could only dream of.

I for one are always thankful when they give advice

Like you say we do not see what they see and it is frustrating

Nice sword none the less

Well said Steve and thanks.

[Brian]

Nathan,

Many of us are happy to own swords that aren't fully in polish, and hold them until we can maybe oneday afford to have them polished, or just preserve them for the next generation. It is a Rich man's hobby, but it doesn't exclude the poor sods like us. You can still see a lot even if a sword is out of polish, although obviously the best education comes from studying swords in perfect condition.

I would say a polish is always preferable to koshirae. I like my swords in shirasaya, no flashy mounts to detract. But to each their own.

There are people able to offer fully traditional polishes in Japan for under $2o00 for a long katana. Check out this for one: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17115

 

Brian

[rkg]

And going with the "in for a penny, in for a..." philosophy, don't forget another ~4-500 for a new habaki... And, oh yeah, a tsunagi to hold the koshirae together, because you don't leave a "good" sword in its koshirae...

 

In general, having a top grade koshirae put together is kind of a vanity thing/something you do because you want it - there is no way to justify it economically. You can have an iai grade koshirae put together for not a tremendous amount of money (like: http://www.Japanese-swords.com/pages/restore.htm , though I'm sure I'd let him touch the blade..), but...

 

No, this really isn't a hobby for the not-well-heeled so much anymore. You can still find pieces in the woodwork, but that's a bit of a fool's game unless you know what you are looking at/for. I think a LOT of collectors start out by finding a "treasure" somewhere (on fleabay, local auction, gun show, craigslist, relative, etc), though it seems like in the vast majority of cases the piece has so many problems its not worth restoring, or so much is paid for the piece that it doesn't make economic sense to restore it. There's a line of thinking that Noobs are best served by not treasure hunting and start out buying a "papered, polished, perfect" piece - this isn't a bad way to go as it usually costs a lot less than going through several "mistakes".

 

Before spending any more money on the piece, you might consider making a pilgrimage to sword show or two and look at every sword there, preferably with some knowledgeable people to point out stuff to you - book learning is great, but not so helpful if you've never seen the activities on a piece in front of you, hefted an actual kamakura era piece (or 10) in hand to study the sugata, etc. there's one in Chicago next weekend for example. LOTS cheaper than going through the "buy, discover the problems, sell at a big loss" cycle repeatedly...

 

On the books, you might also pick up Nakahara's Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese swords - I wish the book had been translated when I was a noob.

 

Good Luck,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

 

If I wanted to have it polished, that's $2k plus shipping, add shirasaya for $600. So I would arrive at a price of $3,100 for an average Muromachi uchigatana.

 

Most polishers charge at least $100US per inch, so you are looking at closer to $3000 just for the polish.

 

Yea, my internet searching and the few folks I spoke to confirm the huge figures. Has anyone realized this hobby is not contusive to the average middle class collector? We are talking figures akin to a used car. A life long study, for a lifelong investment. I might have to piecemeal this over the next couple of years.

 

Nathan M.

[ancientnoob]

You folks have given me a lot to think about and I thank you.

 

Brian- Thanks for the link. I wouldn't mind using one of these fellas. I will try and contact them.

 

All- Thanks for your continued help, and edje-umacation.

 

I was playing with a high res scanner the other day and had some interesting results...maybe you guys wanna take a look.

 

 

Nathan M.

[ancientnoob]

Those high res scans, I was unable to bond the photos as illustrated in the article but I certainly see some advantage to using a high res scanner to actual photography. I performed this at 600 dpi and grey scale against a piece of black felt. I got it down to 4 photo's 2 of each side each over lapping the previous endpoint so the whole of the sword can be seen. I am not sure how this will appear on all computer monitors, but its looks good on mine and on my iphone. The zaimei is tough to see probably being due to the shallow cut.

 

Check it out...

 

Nathan M.

[rkg]

Nathan,

 

What kind of scanner were you using? It looks like you might want to do something funky to get the mei to show up better (rotate the blade 45 degrees on the scanner, tip it a little bit, etc). I even wrote up something on how to do this in the distant past:

 

http://rkgphotos.com/articles/scanning_final.pdf

 

Good Luck,

 

rkg

(Richard george)

[ancientnoob]

Nathan,

 

What kind of scanner were you using? It looks like you might want to do something funky to get the mei to show up better (rotate the blade 45 degrees on the scanner, tip it a little bit, etc). I even wrote up something on how to do this in the distant past:

 

http://rkgphotos.com/articles/scanning_final.pdf

 

Good Luck,

 

rkg

(Richard george)

 

First of course think I just saved to the desktop

 

My lab just got this oober big scanner... I will find out the make and model and let you know. I was surprised the amount of visual information that was yield in the grey scale...wow!

 

 

Although only after processing and some serious magnification did I realize the multitude of fingerprints on the scanning deck. Some of which made some weird looking effects on the picture which I could only remove from the background. The blade it self has some ages old finger prints on it. I suppose that adds to the "character" right...

 

I really keep forgetting to sign my posts....

 

I have got to work on the signature portion of this board....

 

 

Nathan M.

[ancientnoob]

Quick question...

 

Is there a way to tell if this sword is Kazuuchimono?

 

And is there a way to tell how this sword is mounted?

 

Nathan M.

[Marius]

I don't understand the 2nd question, sorry...

 

As for the 1st question - tell tale signs of kazuuchimono are: sloppy nakago, inconsistencies in the habuchi, areas of shingane in an otherwise healthy sword. The hamon will be nie-deki, the hada will be rough and you won't see jigane.

[loiner1965]

I don't understand the 2nd question, sorry...

 

As for the 1st question - tell tale signs of kazuuchimono are: sloppy nakago, inconsistencies in the habuchi, areas of shingane in an otherwise healthy sword. The hamon will be nie-deki, the hada will be rough and you won't see jigane.

I think Nathan is asking if the sword is worn live edge up or down....that's how I interpreted it

[Marius]

Thank you Steve

 

Nathan,

 

A kodachi would have been worn like a tachi, edge down, suspended from the belt. Your sword is an uchigatana, worn edge up.

[ancientnoob]

First of all, I apologize for any vagueness in my questions, bare with me, I am sure you all are aware of the steep learning curve involved here.

 

Second, All, thank you for your continued help and interest in my thread.

 

Using this site:

 

http://japaneseswordindex.com/measure.htm

 

 

I was able to take more exact measurements of this specimen, which in the long run might aid in classification (I might be a bit obsessive about my sword) I was told there is a bug going around...

 

Nagasa: 53.2 cm

 

Nakago: 14.7 cm

 

Kissaki: 3.2 cm

 

Kasane: 0.6 cm

 

Mihaba: 2.4 cm

 

Sori: 1.8 cm

 

Nathan M.

[ancientnoob]

Well I must say that the research of my sword and the research of nihonto and the culture and surrounding history has been nothing short of an odyssey. After countless weeks of daily study and the read and re-read and re-re-read of the newbie books. I believe I have better grasp of the terminology, anatomy and a decent understanding of the principle types of swords. Much with the help of scouring of this message board and threads going back years. What I have gained here and what I have gained from owning this sword I will cherish for the rest of my life.

 

Stan from the Nihonto-club discussion board has taken the time to make some observations on this specimen and the conclusion seems just the same as the well learned folks here.

 

Stan suggested that the sugata of my specimen may have been altered at some point, either intentionally or to repair some type of damage. This would elude to a curvature that may or maynot be original to the sword. He places the sword in the late - koto or early shinto period.

 

He told me it might be decades before I learn more about the specimen, and I am ok with that. Regardless of what the sword is or is not it will always be priceless to me. I could imagine those who have handled many high end and gorgeous swords it can be quite easy to start thinking of these things as commodities, like coins, rare books and the like. I can imagine it being quite easy to cast aside a crappy, damaged, gimei or otherwise imperfect sword as a waste of money, not worth the time, and forget the honor it bestows on the individual for simply owning and knowing of such a sword. I too am guilty of such a mind set. I have done the same with ancient coins many times the vintage of the oldest nihonto. I have cast aside cruddy late roman bronze coins with a $5 value as junk in favor of $500 flashy Greek silver, I have often forgot that each one regardless of era or condition is a one of a kind, hand made limited edition, never to be made again treasure. I suppose this is just a rant, to justify commerical/asset value vs. historical value vs. collector value vs. the value to ones own personal psyche.

 

With all that being said I would still like to ask questions about this sword...with a shout out to all the learned folk

 

1) Is it possible from the pictures/ scans, dimensions, time frame, mei(s) and sugata to determine what characteristics the sword exibits and what school and locations it could be a product of?

 

2) Is it possible for the specimen to be Kuzuuchi mono, from what I read, nearly every sword of this period fits this category (with exception.) Does the sword exibit those qualities? Its not easy to find photos of these Kuzuuchimono swords. (at least knowingly.)

 

3) Any more thoughts on the Big KUNITSUGU?

 

I have said it before and will say it again, I appreciate every ones time, help and patients. I know when I delve into this unknown deep I do so in the company of friends.

[runagmc]

I also wonder about the the shape of the sword. The mune looks like it has been polished way down or something (weird sori, barely any mune-machi left). The shitaji-togi (foundation polish) is pretty bad looking... meaning that the edges (shinogi-ji, etc,) look rolled over and not straight. Also the way the shinogi-ji goes into the nakago looks off.

 

These are just things you can examine yourself, and compare with higher level swords (or pics/oshigata) you see. It's hard to tell a whole lot about the sword from what I have seen, but I would not worry much about the signatures, and look at condition and quality. From the shape and lines, it was either not very well made or it has been altered from polishing... or whatever...

 

You do have a hamon that looks like displays some activities, if you learn to view it correctly (let the light from a light bulb reflect off the face of the sword, and move it around to see what you can see)...

 

Anyway... kazuuchimono- very possible... Muromachi jidai- almost surely ---pretty much just agreeing with what the others have told you already. Just FYI- some VERY good swords were made in the Muromachi period, but a lot of low quality ones were too...

 

All just my opinions that you can use to help form your own...