Roland Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Dear friends, What would you prefer as a first time kantei paper if you want to send an unpapered Nihonto to shins for authentication – NTHK or NBTHK? It seems that during the last few years we have seen a growing number of NBTHK papering. Is the NTHK "out of the game" nowadays? What's about the relationship between both organizations? To what extent do they compete? Just wondering… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Klein Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 The NBTHK has been the largest organization for some time but I believe you need to consider what your interest in papering is. NBTHK is better for resale as it is arguably the standard for 'dealers'. If you look at dealer websites you will find the NBTHK papers most often. If, on the other hand you are looking for information, the NTHK and/or NTHK-NPO would be the better choice as they issue an information page which goes into a bit more detail than the 'attribution' or 'mei verification' issued by the NBTHK. Now then, I am not certain if the information page is issued if the item is sent to Japan for shinsa, but it is when they have shinsa outside of Japan. Chris Bowen would know as for the NTHK-NPO, which is having shinsa in Florida next month (see shinsa thread middle of main page). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darcy Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Both have their benefits, the NTHK (both groups) are much more accessible to collectors, doing the traveling shinsa and being less expensive. That's important for people who are not wealthy, who are finding blades and need assistance. They are superior too where Pete is talking about the NBTHK doing "mei verification", where you could send in a John Smith and get a response of "yes it's correct." ... and you still don't know who the heck John Smith was. Just that you have an authentic John Smith item. Not so useful. In the higher end as the cost of papering tapers as a percentage of the value of the package, the NBTHK is dominant in the marketplace and the Juyo and Tokuju papers make up for the lack of detail on the lower level papers. For the high prices of these items most collectors pretty much expect NBTHK judgments and some blades will have both. But at this level the NBTHK is pretty much the gold standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Pete has stated the key point- identifying your interest in papering. NBTHK is the largest papering organization and they issue hundreds of kanteisho every shinsa. In general, you can't ask questions and you usually get a limited amount of detail. Their papers have been the gold standard, as Darcy has said, though their reputation has been up and down due to a series of scandals. NTHK is the oldest and much smaller. There are two separate organizations with the NTHK name as the group split after the death of the former head. I am a director of the NTHK-NPO, which is a government registered non-profit. The other group is a private, for profit, business. The NTHK-NPO issues the second largest number of papers per shinsa in Japan. The other NTHK group, the last time I heard anything, issues few kanteisho in Japan. For more info regarding these groups, ask around. The NTHK-NPO papers provide much more detail about the item than the NBTHK, as Pete mentioned. They also cost a fraction of what the NBTHK papers cost. Even less if you take advantage of the US shinsa as you avoid the import/export and agent costs, not to mention the long wait. I think many smart people use the US NTHK-NPO shinsa as a first cut. If you have a big name blade or high quality mumei, it is a way to get a very high level opinion without spending the money, time, and risk iof sending off to Japan. If it passes, then you can send to Japan assured that your money and time are being invested well... If you have something that isn't top shelf and simply want verification that the mei is good, or an attribution on a mumei item, I think the NTHK-NPO shinsa offers a better value as a learning tool. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Hi What's about an Euro. NTHK section, shinsa in Berlin or Paris? Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Just keep in mind that Kanteisho (whatever level/organization) are only written opinions. You will very very very seldom get additionnal information from NBTHK on their Kanteisho. Try to get for example from NBTHK a smith Generation or a time era. No more additional information till Juyo, Nor will you get a scale of value in a given kanteisho (hozon, TH, Juyo). There are little juyo and great Juyo, prices rank from 30k$ to 180k$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Hi What's about an Euro. NTHK section, shinsa in Berlin or Paris? Best regards I have had inquiries on several occasions to bring the NTHK-NPO to Europe, to Australia, etc. The issue is the number of items that would show up for the shinsa. They usually do not want to go through the hassle that is a shinsa if there aren't going to be at least 300 items. When I have brought them to the US, I have personally guaranteed them they will have the numbers to make it worth their time and trouble. So far, no one elsewhere has stepped up with a personal guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toryu2020 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I would point out that that the Nihon To-ken Hozon Kai under Yoshikawa Eiichi is not a "business" never has been in its over 100 year history. It is a group of collectors and scholars dedicated to the study and preservation of Japanese swords and nothing more. I refer you to Fukunaga Suiken, preeminent scholar of Japanese sword history: http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/NTHK.htm -t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 A "business" is a venture that provides a service or goods in exchange for money, which is what the NTHK does, as does the NBTHK and the NTHK-NPO. A few of the important differences between them are: how they are organized (for profit vs non-profit); how the revenue is reported (not reported vs publicly) and how the finances are controlled (family vs board of directors). The early history is very interesting but doesn't address what happened later on, once the organization grew and started to collect fees for shinsa (domestic and overseas), membership, and advertising. It may have started as a club, but once it started to offer services and to collect revenue from its activities, it became a business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken-Hawaii Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Even in a non-profit 501©(3) company, people don't work for free, Thomas, so Chris is correct that the NTHK is a business, by definition. My Rotary club, on the other hand, is a group of some 1.2 million people who DO work for nothing, so it is not classified as a business. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toryu2020 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 For the record the implication in the original post was clear enough, The NTHK under Yoshikawa is a "business" if you like, but we are not for profit, no one draws a salary, any fees collected support the clubs activities such as the magazine, monthly meetings and shinsa. There are differences in the groups, yes. One is WE dont take every opportunity to impune the reputation of others... -t 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 That's the problem when an organization is run as a private, family business- without regular, public, independently audited financial reporting, no one knows with any certainty what exactly is happening and thus, you (and others) can make all the claims you want but in the end, without financial transparency, it is all unsubstantiated hearsay. In the past, my understanding is that all the revenue generated by the organization went into the private bank account of the Yoshikawa family, where it was co-mingled with the family's funds. They maintained complete, sole, and full discretionary control of the funds. Maybe the organization made a profit, maybe it lost money. The only thing we know for certain is that they had complete control without any accountability. And this, as I understand it, is the reason the group split and why there are two NTHK groups now- one privately run as before by the Yoshikawa family and one recognized by the government as a non-profit and run by a board. As far as I am aware, the NTHK now, as before under Yoshikawa Kentaro sensei, is not recognized by the government as a non-profit organization. Neither do they publish any independently audited financial statements. I have simply stated the facts Tom, as I understand them. It is what it is-facts are impartial. You can choose to interpret them any way you wish. If I have erred, by all means correct me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee J Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I value the expertise and opinion of the NBTHK highly; however, I also greatly appreciate that the NTHK-NPO holds shinsas in the USA to which I can drive with my swords (and avoid the horrors of shipping) and that they provide a little more detail to leave me guessing less. I do not collect for investment, but for historical and artistic value; the ultimate disposal of my collection is an issue for my executor to deal with, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darcy Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 A "business" is a venture that provides a service or goods in exchange for money, which is what the NTHK does, as does the NBTHK and the NTHK-NPO. A few of the important differences between them are: how they are organized (for profit vs non-profit); how the revenue is reported (not reported vs publicly) and how the finances are controlled (family vs board of directors). The NBTHK is a government agency, not a business. The NTHK schism is a sad story in a lot of people's minds and as can be seen above is still sore. Probably will always be sore. I kind of feel like some of these posts Chris are poking your fingers into the eyes of the other NTHK and you're just going to invite some response and blame casting back. It's not in the spirit of the question above, and the finger pointing has been hashed and re-hashed in various forums online for years and years. I think let it go here and avoid another big flame war over which NTHK has the bigger katana. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattle1 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Gentleman: For those of us who have been collecting a while it would not be difficult to find something negative to say about any group issuing papers, however the overwhelming fact is that the knowledge and experience on their part usually wildly exceeds ours, perhaps not for smiths we might have devoted many many hours of study to, but for the vast number they must consider, coming to them as they do, often in awful condition, and operating under a time constraint as well. I have attended two NBTHK shinsa in the US, shinsa by both factions of the NTHK, the Toen-sha shinsa of Murakami sensei in SF, the Iida shinsa in San Francisco, the Kajihara shinsa in Buffalo and Toronto, and I very much look forward to submitting two blades and a tosogu to Miyano sensei in Tampa. While the different shinsa varied somewhat in strictness, they all gave up revenue opportunities by failing submissions, sometimes in a virtual snowstorm of failed papers. I have also submitted swords to shinsa in Japan. I would not impugn the integrity of any of them. The point is that we are extremely fortunate to have shinsa held in the US from time to time, as they have been held in England and Australia. I would prefer to submit in Japan every time, but one must weigh the risks and cost of that process, irrespective of to whom submitted. We should be thankful for all of the opportunities that come our way here. Speaking personally I believe it is very unfortunate that the NTHK schism happened. I do respect Miyano sensei, and I certainly held the elder Yoshikawa sensei, with whom I had more personal contact, in very high regard. I believe that the Yoshikawa family represents the oldest paper issuing organization, individual issuers aside, and I have one NTHK papered sword issued from a Chicago shinsa dated 1969. I believe that was the first shinsa in the US. All shinsa are something of a speculation for the organization that comes, as there are considerable expenses and always some uncertainty they and the shinsa promoter must accept. If their revenue exceeds their costs, more power to them, and it is with that in mind that makes me respect their toughness when they do fail submissions. Support shinsa, support sword clubs and study groups, support publications, as these things are all intertwined. Arnold F. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b.hennick Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Darcy and Arnold - Cheers for both of you. Well said! Let's end this topic on a happy note. We have heard the arguments many times before. I just wish that the two halves would make a whole. Said with great respect for both groups. Chris and Tom I respect both of you and think that your efforts on behlaf of your respective organizations admirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Indeed. I respect any association that attempts to push forward the same aims that we follow. And like Darcy said, better to address the society we know personally without poking at anyone else's interests. I think all the info has been given and will be added to only if there is pertinent and new info. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts