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Needing help for decision


Roland

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Dear NMB community members,

 

I have to decide which of the following two Nihonto I shall buy. Both have their pros and cons. One is a at aoi listed Harima Daijo Fujiwara Tadakuni, macho-okuri as it seems, possibly the shodai, with all the merits the hizen swords are standing for, but (yet) unpapered: http://www.aoijapan.com/katana-harima-daijo-fujiwara-tadakuni

 

The other one its a rare, dated Tanba no kami Yoshimichi (Kyo-sandai – 3rd gen. who died young, less known and rarely seen, but shows a lot of the qualities of shodai and nidai) with the fine Sudare-ba of the Michina-den, papered with an old NBTHK Tokubetsu kicho: http://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katanaA260513.html

 

Both swords are within my budget (which includes polishing etc. if necessary), and will be useful to study the workmanship of these two schools of sword making.

 

But which to choose? Are there any flaws I haven't noticed with my apprentice eyes yet? What do you think?

 

w/warm regards and perhaps a happy new year!

 

-Roland-

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Both blades have some rough hada that bothers me. Thismight get worse with the next polish. You never k now with Hizento - they have thin skin and shintetsu comes out often. If you are willing to buy either and add the cost of polsih you should be able to find a suitable polished papered wakizashi for that amount of money. Polishing a blade has risks, takes a lot of time and a lot of money. I see blades for sale that cost less than the price of polish, habaki, shirasay and papers combined.

I do not know how long you have been looking but if you look longer at the sites on messageboard homepage you will find something.

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These are both scratch-n-dent specials.

 

Suriage shinto items. Neither with useful papers. Aoi offers a guarantee, but you need to pay for the papers in either case if the other guy gives a guarantee too. So you're elevating your entry price by $500 or so. I don't think they will go Tokubetsu Hozon in their current conditions.

 

Pro with the Aoi blade is koshirae. Minus is 5cm shorter.

 

But ... given both are chopped off I'd be inclined to go toward the one with the koshirae. It will make it easier to sell when you are done.

 

And it's a valuation issue to have suriage Shinto work. But this has been factored into the price so you're not being ripped off or anything. It's just... they are scratch-n-dent specials.

 

The Yoshimichi might just be machi moved.

 

Recommendation: save your money and buy something without major issues.

 

Fallback: buy the more complete package which is the Aoi blade.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Price is I think fair on these things given what they are, cost of polish, shirasaya, etc. The sword is valued near 0 when you enter in all the craftsmen's work. So on that front, you'll never go wrong, but you will be faced with the same headache when you go to sell it one day.

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Roland,

 

Very wise decision, and according to the period you are interested in, some gudilines will have to be followed (indicated by Darcy), from Muromachi and on, signed blades, not suriage and with a perfect polish. Choose a wakizashi following this criteria if katana are too expensive.

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Roland-

 

You need to put the replies you have received in context and consider where your own position lies before making any decision.

 

If you are investing, in other words, gambling, then resale value should indeed be a primary concern.

 

If you are buying to create a first rate collection, then there are better swords to be had (at much higher prices).

 

If you are buying to simply have an honest example of a traditional Japanese sword for study (which you mention), or are trying to get into sword collecting by maximizing the value of your limited budget, then these swords are fine, subject to the proviso mentioned in my earlier post.

 

There is nothing innately wrong with suriage Shinto swords- shortening the blade does nothing to decrease the quality of the blade. Unlike top quality koto, it does reduce the desirability in the eyes of advanced collectors and as you can see, these are priced at a level considerably lower than what they would be if not shortened. Suriage blades, as well as wakizashi, are usually thought to represent better value per dollar because they are usually priced at a discount from what one would pay commensurately for a full length, unaltered blade. As such, they are a great way to get high quality workmanship at a big discount.

 

It appears that both of these swords have retained the bulk of their signatures and are representative works of their smiths and/or schools. They are already deeply discounted in comparison to unaltered work by these smiths. I do not think you would face much if any loss on the resale of either of these (especially with a paper). While not something I would advise for an advanced collector, I see little downside if indeed your goal is a solid work by an established smith at a good price for study. While you could do far far worse, I doubt that at this price level you can do much, if any, better, if you are looking for value in an entry level collectible blade.

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I haven't looked at the swords, but Chris B. has given you some very good things to consider before making your purchase. It's important to understand, in your own mind, what you are aiming for when buying something unecessary that doesn't have an obvious, or set, market value. Once you know WHY you want something, and have considerd that you may need to sell the item at some point, then it becomes much easier to decide WHAT you want.

 

IMO, Don't buy something just because another collector tells you it's what you should want. Understand WHY you should want it, and IF it appeals to you, more importantly...

 

P.S. All that said, everyone was only trying to give solid advise... and it was solid advice, but it was made better when put into perspective by Chris B., I think...

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Roland and All,

This has been an interesting discussion. We have all grown as a result of some expert and clear presentations.Thank you.

The standards of 1) collecting, 2) of the sword market, and 3) of the collecting community all seem to becoming more concrete and clear. In this situation, I have to wonder if swords of the "middle rank" are going to fall in price. Is the middle falling out of the sword market?

Peter

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I think for some time now that the middle of the road items have been a very tough sell. I have noticed from the few times I posted swords for sale here that I get 50 inquires for anything in the $500-$1000 "project" blade category for every blade over $2000. I put a dozen or so blades up for sale here last year and within a few hours all the projects were sold. The best and most expensive blade, at $3500- in 99% polish, signed, dated, shinshinto by a good smith, flawless, o-choji, gorgeous,and a good candidate for Tokubetsu Hozon, didn't get a single inquiry. :crazy:

 

I am sure people that do this for a living like Mark Jones could add to this but in my recent experience, if it is over $2000 or so, your market diminishes drastically and it is a very tough sell. Conversely, top end items, albeit of interest to a very small segment, seem to always find a home.

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Adam,

We may be hijacking this thread, but at that risk, let me say that prices seem a BIT less standardized that collectability. In general, it looks like prices are going down. Whatever the price, quality assessment seems more patterned.

It is pretty easy to assess the quality of common signatures, to place most signed swords into a school or a lineage, and then to get a sense of what people think about that category. Likewise, obvious "take aways" of a particular sword (suriage, machi-okuri,odd length, kizu, yahh dahhh yahhh da) are rather easy to assess. We just saw it done with the two swords Roland invited us to think about. Both of those swords were made and I assume functioned as worthy "swords". The discussion we just had showed how to assess swords. And it sure looked for a while that the obvious and best action that a collector could take after that discussion, was waiting, saving his money, and getting a better sword. I assume that means one with a higher assessment and fewer take aways.

As long as collecting standards are determined by broad the sword establishment, this is patterns will persist. Collectors who set their own standards, by for example collecting schools or lines that THEY happen to like, may be able to find reasons to acquire interesting swords that do not appeal to others.

Peter

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It's no hijacking, not at all! Just in contrary. It's helpful (not only for myself I hope) to recapitulate what I'm really interested in, and what's my intention in collecting and studying Nihonto. It's not for the plain value of an object of art. When I observe my feelings there are a few works which always seem to talk to me: from the Koto period Ko-Mihara, Enju, Gassan, from Shinto times Hizen Tadayoshi and Kanemichi (Michina). It's not easy to answer why these talk to me and others don't. And though on one hand I could imagine to build up a small Koto collection with just one exemplary work from each of the five main streams of the Gokaden, on the other hand that feels a bit to academic – in the way that a strict concept like this would outrule lots and lots of involving works waiting for discovery. But isn't exactly that the quintessence of each passion – curiosity?

 

just my five cents ;)

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And though on one hand I could imagine to build up a small Koto collection with just one exemplary work from each of the five main streams of the Gokaden, on the other hand that feels a bit to academic – in the way that a strict concept like this would out rule lots and lots of involving works waiting for discovery. But isn't exactly that the quintessence of each passion – curiosity?

 

I think your comment points to the simple truth that any collection is a reflection of the personality of its owner. Some people are rather academic, organized, logical, and deliberate. Others more organic, wandering, and opportunistic. If we are observant we can tell a great deal about someone by perusing their collection.

 

There are many benefits to a structured, focused collection. I have discussed them here many times. That being said, in my opinion, the quintessence of passion is pleasure, thus, most, ultimately, collect in the manner that brings the most pleasure. Though, in this regard, collecting based solely on the psychic/emotional benefits it generates may be seen as the antithesis of investing-as one often times will find, quite literally, in the end.

 

In my opinion, the best approach is to find a mode that offers the benefits of each extreme while staying more towards the center; it may take time to find a period, school, motif, or what have you, that sets you on fire, but having some focus will ultimately prove to be a journey rather than an aimless wander and I would think that should prove, for most, all the richer in the end.

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