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Beautiful christian tsuba


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Dear All,

Upon doing some research on the ( European ) Jesuit Symbols, ... I note that the " rays " number each and every time 32. On the example that Thierry posted the number is 32 which would seem too much of a coincidence were it NOT a Jesuit Symbol. Yet the Tsuba posted by Sergei has 37 rays. I then went to Oriental Art Works ( mostly porcelains ) depicting the Jesuit Symbol ( without doubt as all also contained the letters INS ) and I noted the number of rays to vary from 36 to 66 rays. I am probably at least as much a sceptic as Guido, ... but in this case I must lean towards Fred Geyer's attribution that these are ( although not always correct in the ray count ) the Oriental depiction of the Jesuit Symbol and therefore should be classified as Christian Tsuba.

As far as Clock Wheel Gears, ... Jesus that is stretching Artistic License to the limit, .... and Sun Rays as being of Oriental Artistic merit would be much the same as Kindergarten Finger Painting. Anyways that's what my little bit of research has found.

... Ron Watson

 

PS. I must say I do like Thierry's tsuba more.

PPS. Sergei, ... I don't think anyone gives a damn whether you're a Christian or not.

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Dear Guido,

I don't think so Guido, ... the Nazi Swastika and the Buddhist Symbol differ in that The Nazi swastika symbol (卐) is a cross with four arms of equal length with the ends of each arm bent at right angle in right, whereas the Buddhist symbol ( not a swastika ) is a cross with four arms of equal length with the ends of each arm bent at left angle in left and signifying Auspiciousness and Good Fortune as well as Buddha's Heart. It has been in use by Buddhists for approximately 2000 years whereas the Swastika although similar but different to the Buddhist Symbol was adopted I believe by the Nazi's in the 1920's. as a symbol of the Aryan Race ( please don't quote me on the date ).

 

Also as part of the argument for the tsuba design being derived from the Jesuits, ... I do not to my knowledge know of a similar tsuba design prior to the arrival of the Jesuits. Although prior to the 1500's might be a bit early for this elaborate a Sukashi style anyway.

 

... Ron Watson

PS. Chris, ... Having had members of my family lose their lives to the Nazi ... I see no humour ... I strongly doubt anyone except a few Skin Heads are or were pro-Nazi.

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Disclaimer: I am not a westerner and not a Christian. I do not believe in god neither in that Jesus Christ was a god's son or a relative of any kind. My interpretation is not based on beliefs (never), but exclusively on data found in available resources (always).

 

Sergei.

 

My point should it need explaining, was that much of the documentation of so called Christian tsuba has indeed been provided by various Western and probably Christian sources. I raise the doubt of objectivity, nothing more. I dont give a damn about your religious proclivities or beliefs or lack thereof. Or, whether you indeed even come originally from this planet, since none of that has anything to do with the subject being discussed.

 

Fred.

 

My observation was more to the general attribution of Christian tsuba which often seems somewhat nebulous and arbitrary, based on the slightest and in some cases speculative evidence. I agree in this case that the tsuba in question seems to have some claim to a christian attribution based on the evidence you and others are discussing. It is a subject like many another that is in need of more research. If in that research there is found proof and evidence that is lacking then I welcome it. Until then, like Guido, I remain somewhat sceptical about the majority of so called 'Christian' attributions when applied to tsuba.

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Dear Keith,

I too am highly sceptical about many of the tsuba being given Christian attribution. On that point Guido, you, and I agree, ... but in this particular case I think given the albeit circumstantial evidence, .... one can lean towards a Jesuit inspired design. Not saying either the tsuba maker nor the samurai who bought/ordered it were Christian, ... but simply that the tsuba maker thought it an interesting design and so copied it. I doubt that we can come up with a better reason for the inspiration at least.

... Ron Watson

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Okay, to try and get this back on track:

 

(1) Some reserve the right to doubt the Christian origins.

(2) Others see it as a symbol simple and multicultural enough to crop up on its own in several forms.

(3) Maybe a few only a tokei sukashi.

 

As to the sidetrack than is page 3, just a photo attached with the intent of arguing #2 in that case.

Not attempt to drag the Native Americans into it.

It would be best to guess that was the inspiration point for the pre-WW2 Canadian Women's Hockey Team Symbol seen here.

post-51-14196891302016_thumb.jpg

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Dear Curran,

Yes, ... the swastika has been around for around 3000 years, ... but with an educated eye one can automatically tell those are not the Nazi swastikas, as the Nazi swastika is on a slant of 45 degrees. Speaking of getting back on track, ... the design we were discussing was the Jesuit symbol which we know was first used on August 15, 1534 with the founding of the Jesuits ... not 3000 years ago. I believe the first Jesuits set foot in Japan in 1549 ... a mere 15 years after being founded. Previous to the Jesuits I can find no 32 pointed symbol being used by any culture let alone the Japanese ( although the possibility exists, I cannot find a single example ). It would therefore to me at least seem implausible that tsubasa would suddenly come up with the design without Jesuit inspiration.

... Ron Watson

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To avoid any misunderstandings: I don't totally discount the theory that the so called "Tokei Tsuba" were inspired by the “Jesuit Sun” – I just think it's highly unlikely.

 

First of all, the Jesuit symbol usually consists of 32 rays, 16 straight and 16 wavy, placed alternately. So far I haven't seen any Tsuba that has this feature, i.e. wavy rays. IMO there's no technical reason that prevented Tsubakō from carving rays that way. There is also not a single Tsuba – to my knowledge – that shows the nails or the IHS letters, much more important parts of the Jesuit seal than the rays; there are quite a few Namban-Tsuba that have the letters VOC of the Dutch East India Company incorporated into the design, so why was IHS never used?

 

Secondly, dating Tsuba isn't an exact science; do we really have evidence that Tokei Tsuba were not produced prior to the arrival of Jesuits?

 

Finally, even if we assume that the "Jesuit Sun" was the inspiration for the Tokei Tsuba (I continue to use this description because it's how those Tsuba are called in Japan; I find it even less likely that gear-wheels were the template of this motif), what makes them" Christian Tsuba", something that often is implied? If they really were perceived as such back in the day, we wouldn't find that many examples. As I tried to show in my imaginary dialogue between a Bugyō (magistrate) and Samurai, authorities were not that brain dead to suddenly accept a different explanation for the motif if it indeed was of Christian nature / evidence of one's religious beliefs.

 

I also would like to state that I'm not trying to belittle Fred's research – which I find very interesting and certainly not without merit – or that I enjoy poking holes in other people's theories (that field is already covered by some other forumites). I'm just trying to present my take on this topic. I'm also not too stubborn to admit that I'm wrong if compelling evidence is provided. But so far I don't see any.

 

And on a different note: why do discussions like this one always have to result in personal attacks? It should be clear that Sergei just clarified that his opinion isn't influenced by his religion (or lack thereof), or that Chris' (obvious) joke wasn't meant as a pro-nazi remark. It's astonishing how much energy is wasted on NMB to turn innocent statements into (perceived) insults … :cry:

post-13-14196891302549_thumb.jpg

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Dear Guido,

I too notice that none of the alternating 32 rays are wavy, ... and wondered about this as being unusual if they were DIRECTLY copying the Jesuit Symbol. Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that by 1597 Hideyoshi was already persecuting the Christian faith a mere 48 years after its introduction to Japan and that although the Tsuba makers liked the design rather than the religion, modified the rays in such a way as not to be to conspicuous to the authorities and/or to fill orders for Christian Samurai who preferred ( wisely to keep a low profile ). The latter would certainly be a reason for leaving the INS and the nails off the design. We definitely do know that in spite of the edicts against Christianity, and the outright ban from 1626 to 1854 that there were many secretly practicing Christians in Japan and a goodly number of these were Samurai. I have in my collection a Naginata with an unidentified stylized cross mon on the shaft and although I do not feel it represents a Christian Cross, I could easily see the authorities in Edo Japan questioning the symbol if they wanted to be sticky. Perhaps they were not as stringent as we all surmise and unless a blatant Christian Symbol ... passing it by.

 

This of course is all supposition and I have no solid ground to stand on. Although I am far from definite in stating the 32 pointed rayed tsuba was in indeed owned by a Christian, I would strongly argue that the design is inspired by the Jesuit symbol. To me at least it is just too much of a coincidence. I suppose we will perhaps never know, ... but I feel it has been a good exercise in thought and research at any rate.

 

... Ron Watson

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We definitely do know that in spite of the edicts against Christianity, and the outright ban from 1626 to 1854 that there were many secretly practicing Christians in Japan and a goodly number of these were Samurai.
I guess it depends on how you define "many": in the late 1800's, Japan had a population of approx. 33,000,000, and about 30,000 Kakure Kirishitan – that's less than 1% of the entire population, almost the same as today. Of those 30,000, the majority consisted - to my knowlege - of commoners.
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Good morning Gentlemen,

 

Is there a possibility that some of these Tsuba actually may refer to Cardinal and Ordinal directions on a compass?

 

Here with regard to forms of Geomancy and divination such as Onmyōdō 陰陽道 that were extremely popular in Feudal Japan.

 

Much in the same way Kaga Habaki are inscribed with 5 lines on one side and 4 lines on the other as a secret reference to the Kuji Kiri 九字切り - we had a thread about this on NMB a while back.

 

Markus has a blog illustrating a Koshirae covered with the Kuji nine syllables.

 

Could the points indeed be a reference to the Mandala used in various sects of Buddhism?

 

http://www.narahaku.go.jp/collection/d-947-0-1.html

 

Cheers

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I think Guido, Ron and Fred have done an excellent job of researching and posting their theories..none of whom stating that their own opinion is the only possible one. I wish all discussions could be like this. Although I lean towards Guido's opinion here, I similarly don't discount the possibility of some Jesuit influence in the design. However with the penalties for Christianity at that time, and the fact that the Japanese were not known to be overtly culturally rebellious at that time, I am not sure a tsuba maker would want to turn out too many ambiguous tsuba. But the possibility that the design had been seen, and was the inspiration for the shape is always possible. The thing to remember is that we cannot have any conclusion to this debate, as there cannot be any possible conclusive proof. Only theories.

Thanks to those who have tread this fine line of a discussion without resorting to insults. I am hesitant to continue a thread that contains religion and Nazi symbols..but will let it continue as long as we keep it civil. No need to knock the opinions of others.

 

Brian

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This has been excellent thread to read, even though I'm not yet a tsuba enthusiast threads like this are fantastic to read.

 

One thing that does puzzle me a bit in Sergei's tsuba is the fact that one part of it has 5 spokes while 7 others have 4 spokes. Of course we most likely wont ever find out the reason, it just stuck me as bit unusual detail. Surely there has been originally a reason for that.

 

Just throwing these pics out here and I'll get back and keep enjoying the discussion as I don't have any information to add to this intresting debate.

 

32 spokes between 4 attachment points, well 36 if you count the 4 little ones or possible attachment points in their place. However the Jesuit symbol has 7 spokes between the cross sections, these tsuba in this thread have 8 spokes (9 if you count the middle ones too).

 

8cna.jpg

 

And to lighten the mood a bit :)

 

rrzd.jpg

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Dear Guido et al,

Doing a bit of research, I did come up with this photo of a couple of Chinese made jars for the Portuguese Colonial ( China ) market circ. 1860-1870 showing that the Jesuit Symbol did not always depict alternating straight and curvy spokes. Just a bit more information, but certainly in line with the rays on the Tsuba depicted. http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/906.html

These photos were posted on the Google Image page so I think it will be alright to post the link.

 

... Ron Watson

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All,

I will take photos and post today of early items and tsuba since we are getting 12" plus snow and -16f with 35mph winds. wind chill of -50f ..this is not joke!

 

I had this discussion with the Japanaese many years back, you need to break down the tsuba into 3 groups 1.) early long/short rays 2.) standard round attached tsuba "will show photo" and then 3.) a Tokei tsuba as started this talk as modern. When I got started on this design it turned into a all out quest, and went head deep for 3 years into it, I have book shelfs of photos, letters, books, early documents, maps, ect...

 

In studying this tsuba you will find groups "same design, same makers" of these designs that are all burnt "why?" , groups that are fully rusted "why?", ones that have been mounted with holes "why?" I have been buying this things for 15+ years and have over 200 of these tsuba from junk to outstanding to fakes. I figured no way to learn but in hand!! And in hand you can see everything, see classses , groups, smiths , as one type was made by a left handed person , some still have layout lines, others perfect for 400 years but all have to have the right rust.

 

When I first started this I had one Dealer "very nice" Japanese man tell me that they had to be watch gears!! just every other Ray had rusted back the same amount like all the rest of them, what else could they be!! When I showed him a map seal from 1601 and the tsuba layed over it he was shocked and had really never heard of the Jesuits coming to Japan, so can easly explain the word Tokei !

 

If any one can show the KTK book I did a complete time line of this, some things I would change as I have found out new since then but these "early tsuba" are 100% people of faith mounting them on there swords!!

 

Fred Geyer

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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