Gassan (or rather not) on eBay?

[Marius]

Is this Gassan from (removed) real? Seems like damask steel and not the Gassan hada. It also seems like the hamon is missing ?

 

http://tinyurl.com/29fmh9

 

Any opinions?

[Guest Simon Rowson]

The hada looks weird as hell to me too but this guy is a real dealer and this appears from the koshirae and nakago to be a genuine Nihonto.

 

I believe the Gassan school creates it's classic ayasugi hada by punching through the layers as the steel is folded which would explain the circular "wood-burl" effect.

I've never seen it this vivid however which strongly suggests acid to me and the hamon looks like 100% hadori.

[Stever]

Just my amateur opinion, but I agree with Simon. Looks like Gassan hada, but very deeply acid etched. Also looks to have no real hamon, possibly fire damaged. One thing I'll note, though, is that I am unable to find any examples of mei with just "Gassan" in any of my (admittedly very limited) resources. Any one else find this aspect unusual?

 

my .2

/steve

[Grey Doffin]

(Edited)

As for the question whether Gassan ever signed with 2 Kanji, Fujishiro, Koto-hen shows a piece with that signature. Other early Gassan pieces were signed "Gassan Saku"

Grey

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Hi Grey,

 

Attached is a scan from the catalogue of the London Token Taikai in 1989.

 

It shows an oshigata of the nakago and part of the blade of a Gassan Sadakatsu which was forged in 1933 to celebrate the birth of the Crown Prince, now Emperor Akihito.

In the top right picture (of the blade near the kissaki) you can see the same bullseye effect caused by the punching technique.

 

Also, as this is a Japanese dealer based in Japan, he must (by law) have presented this blade to a shinsa panel of the Board of Education (a Kyoiku Iinkai). Only swords considered to be a work of art or an antique are issued with a certificate of registration which is absolutely necessary for ownership of any blade in Japan.

The Kyoiku Iinkai is pretty stringent - when I registered my blades in Yokohama, two dealers who had been on a buying spree in the US had most of their stuff bounced (which means immediate return to the country of origin or destruction by the local police). There is no way they would allow the registration of an obvious Chinese fake so I can only believe that this piece is a genuine Nihonto...... as to whether it's a genuine Gassan, I've got no idea.

 

Simon

 

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

Folks, this Tanto is real Gassan work and has probably still some Suguha left. I have seen other blades having this style of work eventhough they are ratehr uncommon. Not a nice SUgata though but that's only my 2 cents.

[Splidge]

I wondered about the polish myself, so if it gets the remaining 30% polish what will that do for the blade

[Curran]

I would give the blade the benefit of the doubt that it is actually Nihonto. I do not know that the signature is authentic.

(Edited)

Regarding the length of this tanto, I forget the rules on registration. I've owned an O-kogatana longer than this that had no registration problems in Japan, but not sure what the length rule is and how it works between tanto vs. an O-kogatana.

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Hi Curran,

 

Every size of Nihonto (blades with mekugi ana rather than kogatana) needs a registration certificate to be legal in Japan.

I have a very small tanto that had to go through exactly the same process as my wakizashi, katana and tachi.

 

I think it's likely that, as Japanese sellers have to complete a lengthy export procedure, they have to submit the original registration certificate when they fill in the export documents.

Certainly, the 2 blades I bought from Aoi Art whilst living in England never came with even photocopies of their old certificates. This makes sense because you have to renew the certificate here in Japan whenever there are any changes of owner, address etc so they would never send one abroad.

(Edited)

 

Regards

Simon

[Guido]

Blades under 15 cm (5.9 inches) don't have to be registered.

http://www.nihontokanjipages.com/japanese_sword_laws.html

The seller states that the Tantô is 15.3 cm, it therefore *should* have a registration card.

[Guido]

I believe the Gassan school creates it's classic ayasugi hada by punching through the layers as the steel is folded which would explain the circular "wood-burl" effect.

Actually small sections along the edge of a block of Masame steel are punched out, on both sides and alternating, and after that the block is "compressed" by hammering. I hope my description makes sense ... :?

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Guido, many thanks for the accurate info on both sword registration in Japan and the Gassan technique for ayasugi.

 

Max, - point taken. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I've been naive regarding the subject of Japanese swords!

Come to think of it, some Japanese dealers have openly sold gunto blades with Sho and Seki military stamps which are also supposed to be illegal in Japan.

 

Maybe it's like a lot of bureaucracy in Japan - if you know the right people in the right places, they can turn a blind eye.

 

Simon

[Brian]

Guido,

 

I would be interested in your opinion of this piece. My gut feel is that it is legit, but just not given the proper treatment. I don't think it is a fake.

 

 

On a different note...if a family comes across a sword without papers, maybe while clearing an estate or is offered one, is there a process in Japan to declare it and have it registered? I was wondering, as this is what probably prevents many swords from comming out of the woodwork there. I am sure there must be a way, but I guess it would be involved, or people would do it more often.

 

Brian

[Ichi]

I talked to the seller. This Gassan is on a consignment basis without paper. He also felt the hada was very unfamiliar and boshi lost. I asked him if I could see the tanto, but declined because he doesn't have a shop. Only thru the net, I guess. I asked if the signature was geniune. He didn't comment. But as Brian mentioned, he's a reputable seller.

FYI

[Guido]

Guido,

I would be interested in your opinion of this piece. My gut feel is that it is legit, but just not given the proper treatment. I don't think it is a fake.

It looks legit to me, but not very old, and *extremely* Hadatatsu. I think the polishing (including a few spritzers of acid) is mostly responsible for its "unreal" appearance.

If a family comes across a sword without papers, maybe while clearing an estate or is offered one, is there a process in Japan to declare it and have it registered? I was wondering, as this is what probably prevents many swords from comming out of the woodwork there. I am sure there must be a way, but I guess it would be involved, or people would do it more often.

Shame on you, you didn't read my article (see link above)! Next time you come to Japan, I'll only buy you booze and semi-dead sea creatures if you know it by heart!!!

If someone who lives in Japan finds an unregistered sword (which happens surprisingly often, for instance after the death of a family member who hid it after the war, or when an old house is torn down), the finder has to contact the crime-prevention section of the district police (Keisatsu-sho-bohan-ka 警察署防犯課). There a Hakken-todoke 発見届 is issued to enable the finder to attend the Toroku-shinsa.

[Brian]

Shame on you, you didn't read my article (see link above)

 

Just maybe I knew the answer, but wanted it mentioned and emphasised here for future board search compatability and for an on-site answer to the future question :D (Not saying it IS the reason...but just maybe.. :lol: ) Otherwise I am just plain guilty..lol. I did I find that the average antiques shop and man in the street has no idea his "bootleg" sword can be registered, and they tend to either destroy it, hide it, or sell it off to someone else to get rid of it. I think it is the dealers who know the process who have the advantage of purchasing and registering these blades.

I will gladly take you up on that challenge next time. There is a definitely lack of good semi-dead edibles here in SA

 

Brian

[Nobody]

I did I find that the average antiques shop and man in the street has no idea his "bootleg" sword can be registered, and they tend to either destroy it, hide it, or sell it off to someone else to get rid of it. I think it is the dealers who know the process who have the advantage of purchasing and registering these blades.

Although that may be a joke, there is a delicate problem.

Actually, the registrations are not so easy in those cases. Because one shall report the nihonto to the police forthwith after its discovery, one must have reasonable explanatons of its discovery, possession, and transportation under illegal state of the blade (w/o registration) to be issued a hakken-todoke. If one does not have reasonable explanation, the blade might be confiscated by the police.

[Nobody]

I am still unsure of the tanto. The shape and its nakago look OK to me. But the hada looks strange. The pattern looks regular Mokume rather than Ayasugi. I think that the bull's-eyes are too strong for Ayasugi-hada. That looks like a modern stainless damascus pattern (refer to the attached photo: sorry it is not a nihonto but my knife.).

 

I knew the method to forge Ayasugi-hada as Guido explained. But I do not think that the bull's-eyes do appear with the method.

[Stever]

Here's a pic of ayasugi hada creation (non-nihonto) technique:

 

 

FWIW, I have definitely seen the bullseye pattern appear on other ayasugi blades, especially Gassan ones. The end product from the pic above has it to some extent, but not as well defined as the Gassan. I will try to find a better pic of the effect.

 

/steve

[Marius]

But as Brian mentioned, he's a reputable seller.

FYI

 

 

I have once bought a sword from this seller and it was great. The seller is reputable, but his reaction was overdone (see Brian's thread).

 

Best regards