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In your dreams!


Darcy

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An O'Sa tachi would be a dream sword for me. Hear that Santa?

 

Realistically, a nice Awataguchi, or Rai, Juyo someday.

 

One of the vendors at the Tampa Sword Show, was nice enough to bring a Tokubetsu Juyo Rai Kunimitsu and my eyes were forever changed. That particular sword could also fall into the 'Dream Sword' category.

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1. Late Sukehiro.

2. Shizu Kaneuji or Fukuoka Ichimonji. I have to say even with their level, I find 50-70% of swords attributed to these gentlemen - not as inspiring, as the "top" 30%. So it has to be a combination of great condition, great polisher and great work to start with, or it is just a lot of money for a sword I would not enjoy as much.

I have seen many Kaneuji attributed swords I just would not buy. Would much rather settle for shinto gimei with awe-inspiring work.

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Great idea for a post Darcy; thanks for introducing it. It is interesting to read how different all of our answers are. I guess for the Gendaito collectors the Gassan Sadakatsu on your site is just about as good as it gets. In my case…

 

In my dreams: Sanjo Munechika tachi in original koshirae (hey, we are dreaming right?)

Someday realistic: Fukuoka Ichimonji Tachi

 

Robert

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Ah...dreams!

Robert has mentioned us gendaito no shushuka (collectors)....and may I say nihonto no gakusha (scholars).

Although most of us went through the usual steps of learning and most have a reasonable grasp of the koto/shinto/shinshinto era blades and smiths, and appreciate the exquisitness of blades from many makers in these ages, and the reasons the changes in these ages came about, we are among the few who have evolved further into the highest level... :lol: ...gendaito 1900-1945! We have not stayed immobile in the the pre-1900 days.

 

We are the fortunate for we have come to recognise the ultimate peak in the sword history. The military sword of modern times and their immense importance as the ultimate expression of the nihonto and Yamato Damashii..

We are the ones who are creating modern sword understanding. We are brave enough to continue along the path of appreciation and learning regardless of what nihonto central says. It is they, not we, who are lacking in appreciation of nihonto, for we CAN see the elephant in the room...that gendaito are the last stage of the history of nihonto. In many ways, we are forming the opinions that will later be followed by collectors...just as many here follow the opinions of those who came before them.

Continue to ignore it if you must, but for me, a nice Yasukunito, Minatogawato, RJT blade, by any of their makers, is like finding an overlooked jewel...sparkling with excellence, history and beauty.

Few of my gendaito are well known, some are, some are unknown...but all are GOOD swords. The spirit in which they were made, the reason they were made and the innate high quality in them is what I try to find.

Yes I have an "in my dreams", it is my next gendaito...I just don't know which of the Yasukunito, Minatogawato, RJT or unknown makers I will find next....ah...dreams .

Love the history.

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Yes, Trotter-sama and it is for this reason that I recognized that supreme greatness of the gendaito many years ago and set out with the hopes of spreading the gospel according to gendaito throughout the world! :>; Although I have bought and sold many since the late 80’s I do hope that the trend catches on…

 

All I am saying is, that Darcy has the finest gendaito (that Gassan Sadakatsu) on the internet that is currently for sale. (a complement)

 

Best wishes, Robert

 

P.S. What's next Nihonto versus Wadcutter? :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIDWG9Zn8j8

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realistic yoshihara kuniie ,my next star stamp a type 3 with sengoku wars wrap ,(daydram) okimasa , dream swords sadakazu with horimono,shidzu saburo kaneuji,sadamune of sagami, a named sword Dew on the grass,or any of the five swords under heaven!I am a deep sleeper and big dreamer,a sword in full Japanese polish by any rated gendai smith .You are all the holders of someones dream in your home owns and from what i have seen posted,good health and regards to all of you fine people,and remember when your polishing your swords they were all dreams at one time.best regards to all ian bellis

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Hello:

I found Mr. Trotter's focus on the latter gendaito quite interesting as it raises the issue, implicitly anyway, of the evolution of the sword. The change in the Japanese sword, from the straight hira-zukuri swords of the Nara period to the swords of the WWII era, has always been an evolutionary one driven by the determinants of battle formation, armor, fighting techniques, forging techniques and their mutual interaction. While those things might not define the "dream sword", they might set the historical brackets for choice.

As Albert Yamanaka wrote in the Nihonto News-Letter, Vol.II, No. 4 (April, 1969), p. 31, "We are certain that no swordsmith made or forged swords with the intention of turning out a great work of 'art'. though he certainly tried his best to turn out a very 'keen' blade." When the use ended, so did evolution of the blade, and perhaps the limits of our choices. John Yumoto once said that the gunto swords (I believe meaning both gendai of the era and what are more commonly called "gunto") of the war era were an adaptation for cutting the modern battle dress of the times. In the foregoing senses Mr. Trotter has pinned an end point. If the end of an evolutionary process is the great achievement, then shouldn't it be the dream as well? I think that is logic of his view, though everyone obviously wouldn't see it that way.

Artistic and historical criteria clearly drive appreciation of older swords, and shinsakuto, which keep the living technology of manufacture alive while at the same time stressing their "art" characteristics, muddle the end point and evolutionary criterion.

Arnold F.

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Nicely put Armold san.

Yes, I do think that the gunto is the end point of the evolution that "shapes" the sword. While there are both gendaito and showato in this bracket, I focus on traditional blades only, as they are the end of evolution of the true nihonto, while IMO the showato is a diversion from this to evolve a high production rate for a usable sword (so this abandons much of the tradition of nihonto).

 

I do have an "in my dreams" sword though...I would like to find this sword by Komiya Shiro Kunimitsu of Fukuoka...special honour noted seat 1941. Oshigata is from a 1942 publication so it it is 1942 or earlier (see pic...please PM me if you have it :lol: ).

 

By the way...any sword by Endo Mitsuoki, Yoshihara Kuniie and smiths of this standing would be most happily accepted...but must be in original mounts and polish...(ah...sashikomi...also in my dreams :D)...none of this awful modern polish please.

Regards,

PS...Edit to add: I think it important to state that I have to like the sword. If I am offered any sword from any age, I only acquire it if I like it...in short, I am not a "must have" collector, I am a "want to have" collector...call me crazy!

post-787-14196888005454_thumb.jpeg

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I would think the end point of evolution of Nihonto has not come, but, consider the swords of first half 20th century to be a recovery period of sword making, as were certain previous periods. That however is a standard cycle as techniques are lost and recovered and progress resumed in fits and starts, much like a drunk making his way home. The problem is that when you combine hereditary restrictions and innovation they are at odds. Modern steels, heat treatments as opposed to traditional methodologies. Combine this with the axiom; necessity is the mother of invention; and you see that vibrant living evolution can become stunted as the weapon itself becomes redundant. John

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John Yumoto once said that the gunto swords (I believe meaning both gendai of the era and what are more commonly called "gunto") of the war era were an adaptation for cutting the modern battle dress of the times.

 

Yes. And Soshu hamon was specifically designed to penetrate Mongol skin, while Ichimonji tends to be more effective against Ainu. Shinshinto swords are heavy and poorly balanced to better suit fighting habits of shinsengumi (who were also heavy and poorly balanced people). And obviously gendaito were not a meager attempts to copy older sword styles, but driven by some hidden efficiency against khaki. I heard today it is tested on suits worn by hedge fund managers.

 

Because we know - Japanese sword is the best fighting weapon, whose evolution was driven purely by intense combat competition. A number of peasants who with the advent of XXth century suddenly became samurai, ninja and swordsmiths - wrote extensively on the topic.

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Without wanting to re-fuel the continued debate regarding the quality of Showa-To v's earlier swords, which has been often debated with some feeling, I think it is misleading to suggest that swords produced in the second world war were a positive evolutionary step from what went before.

As George mentioned what did occur was the introduction of modern mass production methods that enabled the country to produce functional arms for their forces. That is not the same as evolving or improving on the slower traditional methods and material. They were producing something that was fit for purpose.

Not being a Showa-To fan I have not studied the swords in any depth but I have seen some blades made by Sadakatsu and Yasukuni smiths that are of very good quality. Personally I do not believe these come close to the quality of work produced in the Kamakura period (mind you I don't think anything else does either). However I also accept that this view is based in no small part in the "sword as an art object" viewpoint and my own prejudices rather than pure functionality.

So while I can believe there were good blades produced in the Showa period, to suggest that they were in some way the peak of an evolutionary process is inaccurate. They were made differently, with different material to meet a need not as a conscious attempt to improve on what went before but more likely an attempt to emulate the high quality products of the past.

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Hello:

In response to paulb's post I should say that I did not say, most certainly did not intend to say or suggest that WWII era blades represent, as a group, some pinnacle of achievement, however one might choose to define the term. The sole point was that blades did evolve and optimized within the context of the various forces and situations mentioned that had an impact upon them. That is why they differ period to period. If one accepts the premise that the function of the sword is use, and if one would accept that the end of WWII saw the last use of the Japanese sword in battle, then surely the "evolution" came to an end. I do believe that the quotation from Albert Yamanaka is correct and what we have left today are "art swords" (initially called that in Japan after WWII for a very good reason: preservation!), and in that sense out of the historical evolutionary process, as worthy as they might be for other reasons.

Looking as Japanese swords historically I would not consider Showa era swords other than use determined, and while some of the gendai of the period are terrific, I would prefer a good Ko Bizen to any of them. It is sort of like an astigmatic Picasso compared to a French Impressionist, or a Giacometti statue to a Michelangelo, to my eyes "no contest" though both Picasso and Giacometti represent later artistic "evolutions". The "Dream" issue is a matter of taste and there is no accounting for that and I avoided it on purpose in my earlier post.

Arnold F.

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The reason we do not have that many mass-producted (and not that well made) swords from older eras is that they were used (and ruined) in battle. In WWII they carried swords just to make an impression as they are useless in a modern war. This means many of them survived.

 

just my uneducated 2 cents...

 

PS I would be glad with any sword, even one with hagire, because I have to travel abroad in order to see Japanese swords and fittings...

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I'm reminded of that scene from Indiana Jones... flings sword around... bang!

 

I like blades from the warring era.(made with traditional materials, traditional methods)

 

not sure if gendai blades are "pinnacle" but I do like that it's made with the "fighting spirit", granted it was against us.

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Surely Japanese swords evolved in response to the fads and fashion of their times, as well as the needs of warriors. Sometimes these changes, as judged by today's standards, were improvements, sometimes steps backwards. The evolution hasn't progressed in a straight line up from a collector's standpoint when the frame of reference is "artistic excellence".

 

Having seen good and bad in all periods, I also find it problematic to generalize swords based on periods. For example, to say that Koto are better than Shinshinto or gendaito. There is too much variability in quality in any period to make such general statements, in my opinion. Surely, one can prefer swords of one period to those of another, as it is a matter of taste and, as Arnold has noted, there is no accounting for taste.

 

At this point in time, the metallurgy of carbon steels is fairly well understood. Smiths today actually have advantages that those of old did not have. I don't think, from a functional or metallurgical standpoint, the best blades produced today are in any way inferior to those produced at any time in history. Now, many will say that the best of Koto is the peak of the craft but that starts to become more taste and opinion in most cases, rather than objective fact. The mists of time, the romance, the history, etc., are all huge factors that enter into the collector's psyche and tend to affect the "value" that collectors place on their pray. Having seen surely thousands of shinsakuto over the years, I have seen spectacular jigane, active and bright hamon, utsuri, etc. Surely the very very best of old swords are still the standard, but as this thread bears witness, owning works by Masamune, Shintogo, Go, etc., for most, is a dream; if one were to focus strictly on quality, the demand for shinsakuto would be many times greater than it is and that for older swords would fall. But collecting, as has been stated, is not all about quality, it is also, for many, about romance.

 

Everyone that collects Japanese swords knows Kotetsu, Rai Kunitoshi, Sukehiro, Kiyomaro, and the other giants of the craft. Few will ever have the opportunity to own such works, and a reasonable case can be made that no one person should own such cultural treasure privately. Most collectors are very happy to have Juyo or even Tokubetsu Hozon level swords. There are certainly gendai-to and shinsaku-to that are at this quality level, only awaiting a sufficient number of moons to pass to formally receive the recognition. I have always said of top quality gendai-to, "own tomorrow's Juyo today at a fraction of the cost". I have chosen to put more emphasis on inherent quality rather than the patina of time. This is not to say that many Meiji/Taisho/early Showa swords are devoid of a fascinating history of their own, it is simply a different, perhaps less romantic history.

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About the use of the terms "end point" and "pinnacle". I did not intend to imply that gendaito are of ultimate quality, that is unsurpassed. I mean that the nihonto has evolved through a series of needs-driven cycles and this most recent one has peaked in gunto and ended in 1945.

In terms of peak cycle, I doubt that Japan ever before had such a need for so many swords (6 million men under arms or even higher?).

As needs-driven evolutionary objects it is the form and function I am focussing on rather than the artistry...although I consider the art quality of as high a proportion of them when comparable to the art proportion found in swords of any other period of hand crafted swords.

In the sense that the use-drivers of evolution are ended, I consider the cycles of evolution to have ended ...for me it is in 1945 for others it is in 1876. I consider it a nonsense to admire, study and collect swords from all these cycles but stop at 1876...it is ignoring a period of almost 70 years which is so momentously important to the history and development and use of the nihonto.

 

There are interesting observations to be made from the comments.

It is said that many swords from the previous high demand periods no longer exist as they were used up in battle (but not so the gunto as it was only for show). Well, maybe so, or maybe there has been (and is again) a deliberate suppression of recognition to these swords as not fitting the "peace time artistic ethos" (imagine collecting swords but hating weapons :doubt: ).

 

It is distinctly interesting that when the demand of foot battle is greatest, the sword always evolves away from the magnificent long artistic specimens the traditionalists adore and soon becomes the uchigata...as in sengoku and WWII. The sengoku uchigatana largely disappeared because it was considered functional and not artistic (not worth keeping?)...and the traditionalists want the same thing to happen again...for the same reason. I am saying that in historical and functional terms, the gunto, like the uchigatana, is the end cycle of need/use driven evolution. It is therefore the highest form of the use-evolved sword Q.E.D.

 

I am not claiming it is the best/highest evolution of artistic quality as quality always varies. In gunto, just as in uchigatana, there are carefully made traditional blades and there are large quantities of "mass-produced" types...I collect the traditional ones.

Consider this, if gunto are condemned because they are in this high-need cycle and made alongside "showato", then in logic all swords made 1460-1600 should be ignored as they were made in a high-need cycle alongside kazuuchimono. Surely the good swords of any period speak for themselves and should be open to respect based on the normal criteria for assassing nihonto. Similarly, their period of emergence should also be recognised.

Just my opinion,

Regards,

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Hi George

I think you make a very good point in saying that beautiful swords were made in all periods. I collect koto but that doesn't mean I cannot enjoy, appreciate or lust after work of other periods. I have seen Hizen work, blades by Shinkai and the shin-shinto Gassan smiths and indeed many others that I would gladly include in a collection. It is is simply when having to make a choice my preferences tend toward Kamakura period work.

I am a little concerned about your use of the term "traditionalist" it is used in the same way others have talked about "elitist" when complaining about people who promote studying top quality work. Love of traditional work does not exclude appreciation of more modern pieces.

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Hi Paul, I always enjoy your posts.

In "traditionalist" I mean "conventional" as in being trained to established form. I have nothing against a traditional view of the nihonto and its periods and values etc, until it won't consider the elepant in the room. Then traditionalist becomes adherent.

I too enjoy the smiths you mention and have even owned some very good koto and shinto blades. For this reason I have a working understanding of the traditional collectors view, but I have moved into the "final phase" of nihonto and find it bemusing how the minds of many are so closed (or I should say "unopened" rather than closed :lol:)

 

I hope I haven't hijacked the "in your dreams" aspect of this thread...I did state my dream, but maybe I shouldn't have included my reasons...

Regards,

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Maybe the evolutionary discussion is for another thread... here we are only dreaming and no pissing especially into the wind.

 

Unobtainable... Barry makes a good point that it's not very well defined. One can after all mortgage the house and sell the kids, live in a tree and buy a nice Masamune.

 

I only own one sword personally, a few are inventory swords, each of which I would like to have but fiscal responsibility is not currently letting me. I hope to extend to a second blade very soon though. I have one that I have not listed yet as it's going into Tokuju shinsa that is giving me many thoughts about forking over considerable sales tax dollars to the Canadian government in exchange for the right to permanently own it. I will keep thinking about it (it is Ko-Bizen).

 

Definitely things that I can only look at and don't touch are Masamune, probably any old signed Soshu daito (if they can be found, like a signed Norishige), signed Awataguchi daito, Candice Swanepoel (sigh) and so forth.

 

As I get older I like the older blades more and more, my appreciation deepens for Awataguchi, Sanjo, Gojo, Ko-Bizen, Ko-Ichimonji. I do like masterpieces of all eras, and in particular I like Gassan Sadakatsu, I have always enjoyed every single thing he made. Recently my appreciation for Aoe has been increasing with exposure to some master works of this school. I would gladly own some of all of the above.

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Definitely things that I can only look at and don't touch are Masamune, probably any old signed Soshu daito (if they can be found, like a signed Norishige), signed Awataguchi daito, Candice Swanepoel (sigh) and so forth....

Well, she is South African. And you do have that Sadakatsu.....maybe I can arrange a trade?

"Smell this...does it smell like chloroform??..."

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

 

Brian

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