Jump to content

Yasukuni swords in Type 3 mounts?


Recommended Posts

I have asked pretty much all shops I have visited in Japan when I pass by and they never have Yasukuni swords. I have seen some made after they left the shrine post war but none made during the war. In my early days of collecting I went to posh Japan Sword and asked and they seemed a bit bemused by my request. I also sent emails and got no reply. I get the impression they are not that sought after over here. I was lucky enough to get mine through a friend of a friend so it passed hands privately.

 

Hi Henry,

 

the times I visit the Dai Token Ichi there where at least 10 or more Yasukuni to

also the shops in Tokyo I visit had some in stock (but I was specifically looking for them maybe that's the difference)

also bought some from the private collection of a well known dealer so you can conclude that they are well appreciated in Japan also.

 

Ed S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is still a great deal of disinterest in Japan when it comes to WWII era blades, as well as ignorance. There are a few dealers that usually have some but they also cater to Western collectors who do not have the same prejudices. There is a lot of baggage with things associated with the war in Japan. Thus, while you will actually find a great deal of interest in Yasukuni blades, it is very "discrete".

 

When Fujishiro san published the article on the Yasukuni Tanrenjo many years back, it created a bit of a stir and opened many eyes. There is indeed a small but vigorous market for both Yasukuni to and Minatogawa to in Japan at present.

 

I have been told by a few dealers that it was not uncommon to take Yasukuni-to and make them into gimei koto blades. One well know dealer even claims that there are some with Tokubetsu Hozon papers.

 

The Yasukuni blades I have seen for sale in Japan, like most swords, are usually in nice polish and in excellent condition, unlike most of those found in the West, and in Australia in particular, where many I have seen have severely corroded nakago. Prices seem to be in the $6000-$7000US range for standard blades with anything special much higher. I have seen them for sale in the US for much less than that but again, they are usually out of polish. As a result, I see little difference in prices between the US and Japan these days when restoration costs are included.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris,

 

mr. Han Bing Siong gave a kantei with two German collectors that he described in that time as having the most knowledge on Japanese swords in Europe.

the sword for kantei was a Kajiyama Yasutoku the both came to the conclusion that it had to be Kamakura Aoe school.

 

think the swords where in the early years in Japan not often available to the open market; take for example the Yasunori of field marshall Teruichi he surrendered his family sword and kept the Yasunori.

 

most of the examples I have seen had very early tokuro so they must have been in big collections or with high family's and also take in consideration they where made on (for the Japanese) holly ground and some times a imperial gift; not something you give up easily I think.

 

the reason we see them more nowadays is maybe that father or grandfather passed away?

 

Ed S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris,

 

mr. Han Bing Siong gave a kantei with two German collectors that he described in that time as having the most knowledge on Japanese swords in Europe.

the sword for kantei was a Kajiyama Yasutoku the both came to the conclusion that it had to be Kamakura Aoe school.

 

 

;) ;) ;)

 

think the swords where in the early years in Japan not often available to the open market; take for example the Yasunori of field marshall Teruichi he surrendered his family sword and kept the Yasunori.

 

most of the examples I have seen had very early tokuro so they must have been in big collections or with high family's and also take in consideration they where made on (for the Japanese) holly ground and some times a imperial gift; not something you give up easily I think.

 

the reason we see them more nowadays is maybe that father or grandfather passed away?

 

I really don't know but usually, once an article or two is published and the word gets out, these things become popular. Look at the Nagamitsu and Emura blades, or Asano Kanezane- there are many many smiths who made blades of higher quality but because no one has published anything about them, they sell for much less. Personally, I am fine with that :glee: Talking to dealers and collectors in Japan, there was very little knowledge of Yasukuni blades among them before the Fujishiro article. The old timers had of course heard of them and had seen them but most mainstream collectors in Japan chase the old and famous smiths.

 

Generally, you can't walk into any sword shop in Japan and find a WWII era blade. There are some dealers that keep a steady inventory because they cater to a great extent to Western collectors. Most of the gendai-to I purchased in Japan, and that is more than a few, came primarily from other collectors at prices about half of what the dealers would have asked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really don't know but usually, once an article or two is published and the word gets out, these things become popular. Look at the Nagamitsu and Emura blades, or Asano Kanezane- there are many many smiths who made blades of higher quality but because no one has published anything about them, they sell for much less. Personally, I am fine with that :glee: Talking to dealers and collectors in Japan, there was very little knowledge of Yasukuni blades among them before the Fujishiro article. The old timers had of course heard of them and had seen them but most mainstream collectors in Japan chase the old and famous smiths.

maybe there is a reason for the Japanese pricing (less important for us I think) but a blade made on the ground of a important shrine or one made in jail maybe by prisoners?

 

I had a long talk with a oldJapanese collector at the end of our talk (we where talking swords in general) he ask me for my interest I told him Yaskuni to was one of them, he was extremely surprised.

luckily enough a friend of him had a Yasukuni to in full polish and I was able to point out some of the futures of the blade (utsuri etc) he was flabbergasted and he has studied the blade for almost one hour and told me he has seen things he only had seen in koto blades and never would have believed it also could be found in gendaito.

 

Ed S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I may be wrong about this but when I first started collecting ages ago I heard about Yasukunito from Bill Tagg who in turn knew they were quality swords much earlier. This make me believe the modern resurgence in interest in Yasukunito may have took roots in England in the 80s. In the book about Yasukuni swords the article by Kenji Mishina seems to back this up when he lived in England by chance he polished a Kajiyama Yasunori for a collector who believes it is a good sword despite Mishina san's initial hesitation. I don't know who the owner of this Yasunori is but he deserve credit in helping bringing Yasukuni swords into public awareness.

 

Wah

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, even though none is yet reported in Type 3 mounts I still feel that one will turn up...after all they made about 8200 Yasukunito for the army, surely one was in Type 3?

 

Speaking of probability, I have reported the only? Yasukunito in a 1937 Type Tachi Kaigunto fittings yet known (by Kotani Yasunori 1937) , and as this was an Army swordmaking facility, this Navy koshirae, of all things, should theoretically not exist, so, if the impossible has been proved, I think it probable that a Type 3 is out there somewhere.

 

BTW, someone opined that maybe the Kaigunto mounts are a remounting, FWIW I can assure you that the sword was brought back from WWII as is and has remained together ever since, so if re-mounted it was not a post-war remount. If it is a remount it must have been between 1937-1945...and I can't really think of a reason for this, unless one Army officer died on service and his son/brother/cousin in the Navy took it as a memento of him and remounted it...such a thing could happen as, after all, these swords are private property, not Army property. Other than that, maybe a Navy officer had some "pull" with the "right people" at the Yasukuni Jinja and "voila!" (much more likely IMHO).

Regards,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yasukuni to in kaigunto koshirae are rare but not uncommon.

I have seen a couple of them, I can remember a Yasushige and a Yasuoki.

 

a other reason that you maybe see them not that often is that there are not many kaigunto left in comparison with the shingunto.

 

don't forget Yasuhiro and Yasutoku both made a presentation sword for the emperor; one made the blade for the kaigunto the other one made the blade for the shingunto so it seems the made both from the start.

 

Ed S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I may be wrong about this but when I first started collecting ages ago I heard about Yasukunito from Bill Tagg who in turn knew they were quality swords much earlier. This make me believe the modern resurgence in interest in Yasukunito may have took roots in England in the 80s. In the book about Yasukuni swords the article by Kenji Mishina seems to back this up when he lived in England by chance he polished a Kajiyama Yasunori for a collector who believes it is a good sword despite Mishina san's initial hesitation. I don't know who the owner of this Yasunori is but he deserve credit in helping bringing Yasukuni swords into public awareness.

 

Wah

 

agree with that it was maybe the trigger to get thing started.

but I think a small group was already busy with them.

 

as example the earliest papers (NBTHK) I was able to find

 

1: Yasutoku tokebetsu kicho issued in 1976 to a European collector (so the owner was already aware at least in 1975 that the sword could get papers).

2 :Takenori tokebetsu kicho issued in 1974 to a Japanese collector.

 

these are the earliest ones I have seen maybe some else have seen papers that where issued before that date love to hear if somebody have seen these.

 

Ed S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Ed,

You prompted me to have another look at Tom Kishida's "Yasukuni Swords" and see if it mentioned sales to Navy personnel...and there it was on p.75, in the Japanese kanju page sale list:

Kojo (highest grade) sword on July 23 1937, purchased by Kaiki (Naval Engineer?) Sub-Lt. Sasaki. (Maybe someone more fluent could double-check the kanji)?

So, if I have translated correctly, the Navy sales question is answered...duuhh!, maybe I should have checked this before!

Regards,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I referred to Yasukuni to in kaigun koshirae being remounted, I was assuming this was done during the war. I too have seen a few so mounted and there is no doubt these were done during the war. Clearly there were channels available to make this happen. Lots of strange things happen during war. There are no absolutes in most cases as things become rather ad hoc at the end. I don't think any of it is of any great significance though then again, I also have no real interest in gunto koshirae in general and the details of these have never taken much of my time.

 

I don't think it is unreasonable to think that there were individuals aware of the quality of Yasukuni to before the articles and books made it well known. What isn't certain is the level of knowledge about the Yasukuni Tanrenjo and the individual smiths before this information was collected and put into print. If we look at some of the early oshigata collections of Fuller and Gregory, which as I recall contain an oshigata or two of Yasukuni to, I don't recall seeing much info about them therein. We owe a debt of gratitude to Fujishiro san for his efforts in publishing the extensive article on the Yasukuni Tanrenjo as this is what really brought them into the light. Of course, Kishida san's excellent book, along with Mishina san's wonderful translation completed the picture. Without these scholarly contributions, we wouldn't know half the story.

 

As for the Kajiyama blade polished by Mishina san and discussed in Kishida san's book, that belonged at the time to a British collector, Chris ?Covington??, I don't remember his last name but I believe he was well known in the collector community and I am sure someone knows of him...I bought that sword from him sight unseen, based on Mishina san's recommendation. As Mishina san relates in the book, it was the first WWII era blade he polished. It was by far the most expensive gendaito I had bought till that point. Still one of my favorites.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I referred to Yasukuni to in kaigun koshirae being remounted, I was assuming this was done during the war. I too have seen a few so mounted and there is no doubt these were done during the war. Clearly there were channels available to make this happen. Lots of strange things happen during war. There are no absolutes in most cases as things become rather ad hoc at the end. I don't think any of it is of any great significance though then again, I also have no real interest in gunto koshirae in general and the details of these have never taken much of my time.

 

I don't think it is unreasonable to think that there were individuals aware of the quality of Yasukuni to before the articles and books made it well known. What isn't certain is the level of knowledge about the Yasukuni Tanrenjo and the individual smiths before this information was collected and put into print. If we look at some of the early oshigata collections of Fuller and Gregory, which as I recall contain an oshigata or two of Yasukuni to, I don't recall seeing much info about them therein. We owe a debt of gratitude to Fujishiro san for his efforts in publishing the extensive article on the Yasukuni Tanrenjo as this is what really brought them into the light. Of course, Kishida san's excellent book, along with Mishina san's wonderful translation completed the picture. Without these scholarly contributions, we wouldn't know half the story.

 

As for the Kajiyama blade polished by Mishina san and discussed in Kishida san's book, that belonged at the time to a British collector, Chris ???, I don't remember his last name but I believe he was well known in the collector community and I am sure someone knows of him...I bought that sword from him sight unseen, based on Mishina san's recommendation. As Mishina san relates in the book, it was the first WWII era blade he polished. It was by far the most expensive gendaito I had bought till that point. Still one of my favorites.

 

 

Hi Chris,

 

I totally agree :clap:

but I think Han Bing Siong deserves also a place in the list of people you mentioned

as being one of the pioneers in this field.

 

Ed S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Chris, You are correct...my post before yours took me so long to edit (referring to Kishida p.75) that you answered my "initial" comment before I had actually edited/finished with the later info on Navy sales...sorry...so it means navy koshirae can be correct.

Regards,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but I think Han Bing Siong deserves also a place in the list of people you mentioned

as being one of the pioneers in this field.

 

Ed S

 

Definitely. I corresponded with him on many occasions and he was truly ahead of his time with his appreciation of WWII era blades.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but I think Han Bing Siong deserves also a place in the list of people you mentioned

as being one of the pioneers in this field.

 

Ed S

 

Definitely. I corresponded with him on many occasions and he was truly ahead of his time with his appreciation of WWII era blades.

 

Yes he was and here is the proof

see the date on the paper :D

 

Ed S

post-4823-14196887034103_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the Kajiyama blade polished by Mishina san and discussed in Kishida san's book, that belonged at the time to a British collector, Chris ?Covington??, I don't remember his last name but I believe he was well known in the collector community and I am sure someone knows of him...I bought that sword from him sight unseen, based on Mishina san's recommendation. As Mishina san relates in the book, it was the first WWII era blade he polished. It was by far the most expensive gendaito I had bought till that point. Still one of my favorites.

 

That guy gets two thumbs up for his name alone! :D :D

 

Do you still have that sword or photos of it? It seems like it is somehting of an important sword that helped bring Yasukuni swords into the mainstream.

 

Cheers,

The American Chris Covington 8)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have any pictures but the blade is published in one of the later Yasukuni books by Kishida san. There are a few photos of it as I recall. Fujishiro san told me the best jigane he had seen in a gendaito was that in a Ikeda Yasumitsu blade, until he saw mine, which made me very happy!

 

The blade is over 30" long, which is pretty much unheard of for a Yasukuni blade. It is done in choji and has some utsuri. The nakago has the lower mekugi ana, also unheard of in Yasukuni to. It came in a huge gunto koshirae with a general's tassel. There was a last name associated with it from a sliver of a tag; Fujishiro san tried to track down the former owner from that name but never got anywhere. The saya has a leather cover that has been worn through at the end, no doubt from being dragged around. I can only imagine the former owner toting that huge sword around, dragging it everywhere...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes it is, but it does not appear in the booklet published for the event. They each have their own blade but not this one. Also, at this point in time Kajiyama was making kiji=momo nakago, which this does not have. The o-gunome hamon is also atypical. I have a bad feeling about this one...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes it is, but it does not appear in the booklet published for the event. They each have their own blade but not this one. Also, at this point in time Kajiyama was making kiji=momo nakago, which this does not have. The o-gunome hamon is also atypical. I have a bad feeling about this one...

 

Hi Chris ,

 

on a lot of swords he made after 1935 Kajiyama Yasutoku still used the normal nakago shape.

here is one example.

 

Ed S

post-4823-14196887063204_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Chris ,

 

on a lot of swords he made after 1935 Kajiyama Yasutoku still used the normal nakago shape.

here is one example.

 

Ed S

 

I notice that too. Kiji momo was use to help distinguish his work with that of of student Kotani Yasunori even though the mei is different it was pronounced the same. Since he sign his full signature instead of the two characters use on many Yasukunito it might not be totally necessary for him to use kiji momo.

 

Wah

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Chris ,

 

on a lot of swords he made after 1935 Kajiyama Yasutoku still used the normal nakago shape.

here is one example.

 

Ed S

 

I notice that too. Kiji momo was use to help distinguish his work with that of of student Kotani Yasunori even though the mei is different it was pronounced the same. Since he sign his full signature instead of the two characters use on many Yasukunito it might not be totally necessary for him to use kiji momo.

 

Wah

 

Hi Wan,

 

maybe this is a better example.

 

Ed S

post-4823-1419688707996_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Ed,

That is the one I posted last month on NMB and it was an award for horse racing competition

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16958&p=149409&hilit=yasutoku#p149409

It shows the nominal 2 character mei but not kiji momo nakago. There is one in the UK also 2 character with normal nakago. The kiji momo is not strictly adhered to but was adopted for many of his later work at the shrine most likely the smith wanted a style change now that he is a master of a master smith or for other reasons. The assumption that he use kiji momo to distinguish his work and that of his student maybe incorrect or at least not completely correct.

 

Wah

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the example shown by Ed and Wah still have what would be called a "kijimomo-fu" nakago-meaning there is a hint of the kijimomo shape. There is very little taper in the width of the nakago until roughly the mekugi-ana, after which it starts to taper. It isn't as extreme as on many of this blades, but the tendency seems to be there. If you compare these two to the Showa 9 one posted by Ed, I think perhaps you will see what I mean,

 

Irregardless, the fact that this blade is not documented with the others made for this event is the most damning in my mind. Also, as I said, the hamon is atypical in my experience. If you guys can round up some examples of Yasunori work with an o-gunome hamon, I would be happy to learn something new.

 

In any case, like I said, it is just a feeling. I've been wrong before :dunno:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the example shown by Ed and Wah still have what would be called a "kijimomo-fu" nakago-meaning there is a hint of the kijimomo shape. There is very little taper in the width of the nakago until roughly the mekugi-ana, after which it starts to taper. It isn't as extreme as on many of this blades, but the tendency seems to be there. If you compare these two to the Showa 9 one posted by Ed, I think perhaps you will see what I mean,

 

Irregardless, the fact that this blade is not documented with the others made for this event is the most damning in my mind. Also, as I said, the hamon is atypical in my experience. If you guys can round up some examples of Yasunori work with an o-gunome hamon, I would be happy to learn something new.

 

In any case, like I said, it is just a feeling. I've been wrong before :dunno:

 

Chris,

 

I agree the sword is a little odd also with the o kisaki and not standard hamon but who knows?

as long as we don't know if there are papers on the sword or that it has been put in for papers.

I have seen this sword for sale about two years ago on a Japanese site there where more photo's and the jihada looked like Yasutoku but again a joined work of father and son maybe there was a compromise or special order for a sword like that? (playing a little the devils advocate now :D )

 

as far as I know the only thing sure in Japanese swords is that's nothing is shure :D

what to think about the swords he made in Kanemoto style and Rai style I have seen these with hozon

 

Ed S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the example shown by Ed and Wah still have what would be called a "kijimomo-fu" nakago-meaning there is a hint of the kijimomo shape. There is very little taper in the width of the nakago until roughly the mekugi-ana, after which it starts to taper. It isn't as extreme as on many of this blades, but the tendency seems to be there. If you compare these two to the Showa 9 one posted by Ed, I think perhaps you will see what I mean,

 

Irregardless, the fact that this blade is not documented with the others made for this event is the most damning in my mind. Also, as I said, the hamon is atypical in my experience. If you guys can round up some examples of Yasunori work with an o-gunome hamon, I would be happy to learn something new.

 

In any case, like I said, it is just a feeling. I've been wrong before :dunno:

 

Chris,

 

I agree the sword is a little odd also with the o kisaki and not standard hamon but who knows?

as long as we don't know if there are papers on the sword or that it has been put in for papers.

I have seen this sword for sale about two years ago on a Japanese site there where more photo's and the jihada looked like Yasutoku but again a joined work of father and son maybe there was a compromise or special order for a sword like that? (playing a little the devils advocate now :D )

 

as far as I know the only thing sure in Japanese swords is that's nothing is shure :D

what to think about the swords he made in Kanemoto style and Rai style I have seen these with hozon

 

Ed S

 

 

I have seen a few blades as well by Yasunori that are not done in his usual style, so I agree that alone is not reason to doubt this blade. And as mentioned, sometimes he made blades without the kijimomo nakago, so that alone is not reason to doubt this blade.

 

The blade is inscribed that it was made for the 700th anniversary celebration of emperor Gotoba for the Shinsakuto Hono Kai. This group, in celebration of this event, commissioned blades from top smiths of the day. They were then displayed, along with many older swords of top quality, at the Osaka Takashimaya Department Store from July 1 through the 6th, in 1941. There is a publication from this exhibit with full descriptions and oshigata of each blade. The blades were divided into two groups and donated to two shrines. I know that at least one of these two shrines still has all of the blades it received. The publication is entitled "Showa no Goban Kaji Saku To".

 

The fact that this blade was not displayed, nor listed in the exhibit catalog, is very odd. There are indeed blades by both Yasunori and his son Yasutoshi shown and listed. I also find it odd that they would have each made individual blades which were submitted and documented, and then made an additional blade together, that isn't listed or documented. This would have been a statement blade; I find it very odd that a large, show piece like this wouldn't have been part of the exhibit.

 

Again, it may well be ok, but in light of all these peculiarities, in sum, I have serious doubts. Perhaps at some juncture we will see it turn up with kanteisho. Though knowing that this period is not the NBTHK's forte, I wouldn't necessarily still find that convincing in and of itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say the oddness made it more compelling for it to be good. If it was a fake it would not try and run the risk of trying to make a unrecorded joint work example so we collectors would question it. Good question why it was not exhibited at the department store? Maybe it was the only joint work and there were rules in place for each smith to submit one sword so this was withdrawn? I like to see the list and what has been submitted by others.

 

Wah

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...