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Yasukuni swords in Type 3 mounts?


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He still signed some after leaving Yasuhiro, but blades made by Yasuhiro after he left the Yasukuni Tanrenjo are not considered Yasukuni blades...

 

I'm always surprised by your knowledge about showa blades....Thanks for the information.

 

I surprise myself too sometimes, usually though by how little I really know!

 

You are welcome....

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This is very interesting feedback...thank you all...Brian, I have never seen showato in the higher quality mounts, but many here have seen more Type 3s than me I am sure...

I would really like to see that aoi art auction info on the Yasuhiro with black ishime saya and silver plated fittings ....I have a feeling that it was maybe a private order after leaving the Yasukuni, and while it may not answer this query, it would be interesting to see a pic of the mounts.

I know this is of no real artistic importance in the great scheme of nihonto...but it is a historical point worth clarifying IMHO.

Let's keep on searching...

Regards,

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by "rated higher (2M) at that time", what "time" are you referring to?

 

I'm refering to the time up to the point when the TokoTaikan was written (pre-war and post) - my thinking being that those rankings would have expressed the knowledge/opinion of the time (obviously), and that knowledge/opinion would have been greatly influenced by past ranking, popularity, and opinion (you would think)...

 

Good question George. It's questions like these that may help revel pieces of info that otherwise may have gone unnoticed...

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Toko Taikan, as mentioned, was written post war and placed an emphasis on post war era production and rankings. Rankings for smiths who did not work post war, or only for a short time post war, were based more or less on things like seniority and war era rankings (which had a heavy seniority/political component). Additionally, many of the smiths made rather low end blades during the war but made much higher quality "art swords" post war. Really apples and oranges. As a result, these rankings aren't really transferable across time.

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Quick question. Why is a Type 3 mount regarded as higher quality as a 98 mount ? Or did I read wrong ?

 

KM

The highest quality Type 3, with ishime lacquer on wood saya, with lacquered ito and high quality iron fittings are on a par with the same level of quality in Type 98. But the lowest level of Type 3, with crude iron saya, cheap ito and iron fittings are IMHO far below the lower level of Type 98.

 

Also, Brian, I saw a "showato" in high end Type 3 mounts listed on Aoi-Art today, but when you look, it is clearly nihonto with the mei and most of the date crudely ground off...so, I guess it is still no...we don't find showato in high end Type 3.

Regards,

Geo.

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Ed san,

that is very nice...almooost Yasukunito in Type 3, but not quite. I know this is off topic but your Type 3 mounts are very similar to this one of mine...even to the black ishime saya, plain kojiri (no blossom) and standard military issue fuchi

My blade is by an unknown Tokyo smith, (is yours Tokyo?) so it may be that there was at least one special order Type 3 fittings mounting shop who did this style of work in Tokyo....both maybe came from the same mounter?

 

Maybe we are getting closer also to answering the OP...I hope interested members keep searching....

I'd be interested in seeing more/knowing more about your Kuniteru Ed, but maybe it is too off-topic for members (members must be sick of seeing pics of this Type 3 of mine again), but as this is a significant step in the study of Type 3 mounts IMHO, I'd like to continue. However, please feel free to contact me by PM Ed.

Thanks, nice sword/mounts.

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That mei looks very familiar for sure Ed...is Kuniteru a name used by Yasuhiro? like his Kunimori? I couldn't find a link of that mei Kuniteru in my Ikkansai lists of smith lines.

I must say also that the kojiri on your saya is identical (in the fancy outline across the top) to the kojiri on my Type 3.

Very interesting also that your blade is dated 1944, same as mine....same mounting shop?

Regards,

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Hi George,

 

no it was a student of Yasuhiro there is a slight variation in the mei if you look carefully.

I found that another blade of Kuniteru was sold in Japan a couple of years ago and they had the info on him; before that I wasn't also not able to find anything about him but because of the mei I already suspected that there had to be a connection between this two.

 

and yes there is a chance that it was the same maker of the koshirae.

 

Ed S

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Yes, rare I think...I immediately went to your Ikkansai line list Chris, but no, he wasn't there...or in my other references...but I am sure I have seen this mei before somewhere, or maybe my old brain is thinking Kuniteru for Kunimori.

Have you seen these gangimaki style tsuka on Type 3 koshirae before Chris?

Regards,

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There were undoubtedly several helpers/students/apprentices at the Okura Tanrenjo and it isn't surprising to see some of these other blades. It is also possible that the same person signed more than one mei. This is an area that would benefit from more research.

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I agree With you Chris

seeing the amount of blades signed Kunimori there has to more then one person who made these, maybe now and then they where allowed to use there own name on some of the blades?

also the Kunimori signed blades I have seen always had a Koa Isshin feeling to them don't want to say mass produced but most of them look very similar to them (almost to much).

 

Ed S

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I agree With you Chris

seeing the amount of blades signed Kunimori there has to more then one person who made these, maybe now and then they where allowed to use there own name on some of the blades?

also the Kunimori signed blades I have seen always had a Koa Isshin feeling to them don't want to say mass produced but most of them look very similar to them (almost to much).

 

Ed S

 

 

I think I have posted before on the Kunimori blades but yes, they were made in great quantities of western steel, by Mizukoshi Hiromitsu, among others perhaps, and most, but maybe not all, were then signed by Miyaguchi with the Kunimori mei. I was told this by Miyaguchi's son, who helped his dad by holding the swords while his father added the Kunimori mei, after bundles of them would arrive.

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There seem to be several variations on the type 3 theme. I would put them into two groups: those with lacquered tauka-ito and wood lacquered saya, and those with unlacquered ito and metal saya, usually a light, olive green color.

 

The first type above are often found with RJT blades and I have to wonder if they weren't developed at the same time as the RJT program was launched, and possibly specifically for the RJT blades. Sometimes non star stamped blades are found in them too, but nearly always better quality blades.

 

The second type, in my experience, are always found with with low end, machine made showa-to blades. I have NEVER seen one with a quality blade.

 

I have a star stamped Kanehisa in the second type - unlacquered ito, metal saya. Blade is dated May '45, so maybe they were using any koshirae they could get at that point? Not a Showa-to at least.

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Many people fail to appreciate Yasukuni blades and indeed most are not flashy in the least, but very reserved. Especially those by the Ikeda Yasumitsu branch of smiths which are mostly done in suguha. You do see, fairly often, choji in the work of Kajiyama and gunome with deep ashi is Kotani's work, however.

 

I had a nice Kajiyama sword a while back and it was classic example of what Chris said above. I can't remember the date but I think it was 1941 ish when it was made. It was far from flashy, with an unpretentious ko choji hamon and could have been called boring. I sold it about 5 years to Aoi Art who jumped on it after quibbling over the price. I have fond memories of it and would probably appreciate it more these days since I have grown, matured and mellowed in my old age :lipssealed: Attached is a picture I stumbled across of the nakago ana, and I throw out to the dogs to rip apart.... or alternatively for future research purposes. Incidentally, if anyone has it in their possession, I would love to hear from them.

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Wow...I just had a brilliant idea,

How about Henry, Chris, Brian and any member who has close and continual contact with dealers and collectors in Japan ask their contacts if they have ever seen a Yasukunito in Type 3 mounts?

Maybe a dealer has been offered one?

Maybe same for members who have ties with UK, US and European dealers...

Just a (brilliant) thought.... :D

Regards,

 

PS, if the Hiroteru blade Ed has posted is on a level with Kunimori blades (non-tamahagane)...would it qualify as a showato in Type 3?

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I have asked pretty much all shops I have visited in Japan when I pass by and they never have Yasukuni swords. I have seen some made after they left the shrine post war but none made during the war. In my early days of collecting I went to posh Japan Sword and asked and they seemed a bit bemused by my request. I also sent emails and got no reply. I get the impression they are not that sought after over here. I was lucky enough to get mine through a friend of a friend so it passed hands privately.

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