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Reddit user might have a shoshin Gassan Sadakazu?


Gabriel L

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Hello,

 

I found an old Reddit thread by a user who posted several image galleries of inherited swords:

 

Gallery 1

Gallery 2

Gallery 3

 

They are too slathered in old gun grease (which seems to have at least kept them in good condition!) to tell much about the workmanship, but I messaged the user to tell him that they were all genuine nihonto and he should post them here after cleaning off the grease. Unfortunately he is not an active user of the site and who knows if he will ever see that message.

 

The main issue, however, is that the katana is signed as follows (translation was fun):

 

http://i.imgur.com/21JX0.jpg

 

Ura:

 

大正三年三月吉日

Taisho sannen san gatsu kichijitsu

"A lucky day in March of 1914"

 

http://i.imgur.com/nawVK.jpg

 

Omote:

 

大阪住人 帝室技藝員 月山貞一彫同作 [KAO of SADAKATSU (not kazu)]

Osaka junin * Teishitsu gigeiin * Gassan Sadakazu hori do saku * [KAO]

"Resident of Osaka" "Imperial household artisan" "Gassan Sadakazu made and carved this" - [insignia of his son Gassan Sadakatsu]

 

It also has some interesting horimono:

 

http://i.imgur.com/3ScTa.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/Hj7bYh.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/2Povoh.jpg

 

And it's kata-unokubi-zukuri, which is unusual.

 

Now...

 

What do you think?

 

Obviously Sadakazu is super-famous and gimei exist. On the other hand, nakago shape, yasurime, and signature style are not too bad:

 

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/sy_sword/sw11157/kt1.jpg (NBTHK example from this NMB thread)

 

The "Sada" character is not quite the same, for one, but on the other hand the son Sadakatsu (whose Kao is on the bottom of this sword) sometimes signed it similarly:

 

http://sanmei.com/Pictures/Sword/A69560_PUP1.jpg

(From Sanmei)

 

What is more, as I just learned from this Metropolitan Museum of NY article on Sadakazu swords, the Sadakatsu may well have forged and/or signed some of his father's later-period swords (PDF at http://cl.ly/3s3K2S2K0D23 ).

 

That article also has a mei style similar to the one on this sword (scroll to the bottom).

 

So again, what do you all think?

 

I cannot ignore the discrepencies in mei, especially in the Sada character. On the other hand it doesn't look too bad to me for a transition piece between father and son. The genuine mei I have found all have variations (EDIT: lost all the links when I closed the browser, dang. Well, you all know how to use Google). The horimono looks "nice," but is it up to Gassan Sadakazu's/katsu's level? I don't know (not expressing doubt, just ignorance. Well, a small doubt).

 

I am very curious to know your assessment. Thank you for your time,

 

—Gabriel L.

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Josh, you are much surer than I am! :lol:

 

I am cautiously optimistic (for the user... wish I could get in touch with him) – would not have bothered posting if I didn't think it was a possibility – but I have reservations too. EDIT: and obviously, in the real world the mei is only one piece of the puzzle, the blade needs to be looked at. But that isn't possible in this case... yet.

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Hi Gabriel,

 

Here's a little line up - all the reference examples are papered and from 1911->1914 (so roughly the same era).

Please look closely and you'll find a lot of differences in the strokes. The yasurime also don't look fine enough and quite superficial.

 

post-502-14196877359781_thumb.jpg

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Dirk,

 

Now that's more like it, a bit of healthy skepticism. Nicely done. :D Like I said, that "Sada" character is way too out there for my taste (even more alien than this Sadakatsu example). The first character of Gassan is perhaps a little wide as well. EDIT: and now I see what you mean about the yasurime as well, there is a difference. I did not catch that at first. Must always look closer!

 

If it is gimei, though, then it was obviously done by someone working from example. It always astonishes me that there would be so many unscrupulous smiths throughout history, to forge so many gimei.

 

Still like to hear opinions. Ultimately shinsa would have to be the judge, but I'm not convinced either way yet.

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All the examples, including the suspect mei, dirk has so kindly provided show a few consistencies with specific turns, angles, and visible depth on strokes. Overall though- no example is identical. So inconsistencies shouldn't deter what our (or at least my) gut screams .. Shoshin.. ;)

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Overall though- no example is identical. So inconsistencies shouldn't deter what our (or at least my) gut screams .. Shoshin.. ;)

 

My gut screams "maybe." :freak:

 

Small inconsistencies are not a death knell. But when dealing with the most famous (and most copied), you have to be the most critical.

 

Personally the difference in yasurime is almost more telling than the difference in mei. Mei are "organically" carved in a handwriting style, they are sometimes different. But it is suspect when a completely different file was used on the nakago for just this one sword...

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This from monsieur "shoshin gimei" :lol:

 

No way for me to buy it, and possible this information will never reach the owner, so this is all an academic exercise at the moment.

 

I agree with you philosophically though. "Hope for the best, plan for the worst."

 

EDIT: do you care to venture an opinion? No pressure...

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I'm pretty sure that's just the picture/lighting making the yasurimei look softer. If you look closer to the nakago jiri the file marks look sharper again, IMO. I can agree with being cautious.. I guess I'm just sold on this one. Haha

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Thanks Gabriel to have noticed my Soshin Gimei :laughabove: you may have noticed that as refinement I have written Soshin and not Shoshin.

 

In fact all depends of the selling price. A tip: if you are interested in a sword and don't know if the mei is Sho Shin, send a picture of it to NTHK, Gordon Robson. You will have a first opinion. :)

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I'm pretty sure that's just the picture/lighting making the yasurimei look softer. If you look closer to the nakago jiri the file marks look sharper again, IMO. I can agree with being cautious.. I guess I'm just sold on this one. Haha

 

I considered the possibility that it was a photographic issue, but the full resolution images from two angles and lighting conditions seem pretty clear:

 

http://i.imgur.com/21JX0.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/nawVK.jpg

 

Again though... I do not know.

 

Thanks Gabriel to have noticed my Soshin Gimei :D you may have noticed that as refinement I have written Soshin and not Shoshin.

 

Oops! That's my cue to take a break and come back to this thread with fresh eyes. ;-)

 

Thanks for the tip re: Mr. Robson,

 

—G.

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Is the sword shobu-zukuri on the omote, and unokubi-zukuri on the ura? If so, that's a combo I don't remember seeing before...

 

I have pics of a NBTHK papered Sadakazu from 1910 with the same dragon horimono. They are very similar, But I can see a few differences as well, so :dunno: post-2413-14196877364004_thumb.jpg

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I was wondering how a Gassan could be dated taisho 3, and the grandparents supposidly immigrated in 1915. Then I saw the update in the posts below, which makes more sense. A ww2 bring back from a Japanese-american serving in the pacific.

 

Just as interesting as the Gassan blade would be to know more about the Millitary Intelligence Unit (MIS) his grandfather served in. Jpn-Americans serving in the pacific. They get much less press than the 442nd/100th but have a facinating history also. FYI, their first base/classroom in the SF Presidio is being converted into a museum.

 

Thanks for the most interesting post!

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Is the sword shobu-zukuri on the omote, and unokubi-zukuri on the ura? If so, that's a combo I don't remember seeing before...

 

EDIT: OOPS! Yes, you are right and I feel stupid for saying otherwise. Not sure where I was looking.

 

I have pics of a NBTHK papered Sadakazu from 1910 with the same dragon horimono. They are very similar, But I can see a few differences as well, so :dunno:

 

Many thanks. Here is a direct comparison with some minor photo tweaking to make the comparison as "fair" as possible.

 

I know the photos are not equal and the sword in question is covered in grease and not lit as nicely or angled perfectly... but the bottom horimono still looks a cut above.

 

Yet the horimono on top is nothing to sneeze at, in my opinion. And the workmanship is certainly similar if not identical. And if it's gimei, it would be a surprisingly good horimono... if you can work at that level, why not just make a name for yourself? Sooooo...... I still don't know.

 

Horimono.jpg

 

EDIT: missed another shot of the nakago! Gives slightly better detail I think:

 

http://i.imgur.com/J4EGk.jpg

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Two more examples for your consideration.

 

First, this sword has 1959 NBTHK Kicho papers and is also dated 1914. With the exception of that "Sada" character, it looks pretty dang close to me... and the yasurime appear just as coarse!

 

Yasurime.jpg

 

Second, this undated ("early Meiji") tanto has a pretty wonky signature (note the similarity of the Sada character) compared to everything else we've seen, yet has NBTHK Hozon & Tokubetsu Kicho papers:

 

Mei.jpg

 

:?

 

Honestly the last one I am surprised papered with such a different mei. Did they get it wrong, or did his mei really change that much? I cannot say. [EDIT] But my own opinion regarding the authenticity of the Reddit sword, after swinging towards gimei, is swinging back to possibly shoshin.

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Check the Shinshinto volume of the Nihonto Koza translated by Harry Watson. There is a section on gimei with a Sadakazu example that may prove enlightening...

 

Reading that chapter now. Page 399-400 is already pretty shocking, no idea that it was practically an organized production.

 

While I'm reading this, do you want to stick your neck out? It sounds like you may be opining it is gimei. No obligation, just appreciate any and all discussion on the topic.

 

EDIT: well, it was certainly interesting. I could find several more possible discrepencies in the sword in question (based on the chapter specific to Sadakazu), once again shifting my opinion towards gimei. On the other hand, I could also find some discrepancies in some of the supposedly shoshin examples (I had to run a control on this experiment, after all). So I'm still not certain myself.

 

At the moment however I'm running a ~65% confidence level that it is gimei. "Good" gimei, but gimei.

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Due to the tremendous number of fake Sadakazu blades, I usually assume fake until proven differently, even if the signature is very close. Without seeing the workmanship in the blade, I would not be able to confirm much of anything. The horimono is quite good but not quite equal to the confirmed comparison. Many of the later Sadakazu works were actually done by Sadakatsu, which further complicated things. Best thing to do when they are close is to get the blade to a competent shinsa panel.

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Due to the tremendous number of fake Sadakazu blades, I usually assume fake until proven differently, even if the signature is very close. Without seeing the workmanship in the blade, I would not be able to confirm much of anything. The horimono is quite good but not quite equal to the confirmed comparison. Many of the later Sadakazu works were actually done by Sadakatsu, which further complicated things. Best thing to do when they are close is to get the blade to a competent shinsa panel.

 

Yeah, that all makes sense to me. Hopefully the owner will one day log back onto the site and see the message I sent him. Even if we can make a case for shoshin or gimei based on these photos, it is a textbook example of a blade that should go through shinsa regardless.

 

Thanks for the input,

 

—G.

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The yasurimei looks weaker and the mei is a little loose. I'm more incline to believe it is a fake.

It is certainly done in the fashion of Sadakatsu.

The horimono is well done. If it turns out to be a fake, is it a recent or old fake?

I suppose there is a possibility of it being a postwar replica swords by smiths for GI souvenir?

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I know you guys love to err on the side of caution but that blade to me looks pretty good and although not a top level example of his work, it does look like his work to my novice eyes.

 

"His work..." technically all we can see is the nakago, horimono, and some obscured shots of the blade. That's a lot, but it isn't everything, and it crucially does not include the actual workmanship re: hada, hamon, hataraki, etc. There is an outline of the hamon which looks like a more flamboyant/wild form of choji than I have seen on other Sadakazu works (but he did work in many styles). The horimono is good but the reference works are objectively better (look at the details in the dragon's "face," and the handle of the ken looks a little crooked). The nakago is similar but has weaker yasurime and a number of distinctive issues especially in light of the gimei breakdown in the Nihon To Koza. His work did vary in quality but this is a famous smith with many gimei.

 

My own opinion after all this discussion is that it has potential and should go to shinsa, but I would bet on a negative result. Even if it is gimei however it looks like it might be a skillfully-made sword.

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same year : Taisho 3 (1914) ...to compare "sada"

 

Eric

 

Thanks Eric. Another point in support of this sword.

 

We can only hope that the owner one day receives my message and gets us good photos / sends it to shinsa. In the meantime I feel like a politician with how much flip-flopping I am going through. :roll:

 

Chris's advice seems the best, assume gimei on principle and then shoshin is a pleasant surprise.

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