Machine made ww2 blade vs. Traditional hand made blade

[Dick Tait]

This is turning into a complex topic lol, just for a minute, forget vanadium and modern steels and ask yourself..

 

During world war2, would a soldier with a gun need a particularly high strength blade?

 

Alex.

 

Only if he's run out of bullets!!!

[mas4t0]

This is turning into a complex topic lol, just for a minute, forget vanadium and modern steels and ask yourself..

 

During world war2, would a soldier with a gun need a particularly high strength blade?

 

Alex.

 

I was pretty much thinking out loud, I'll stop now.

[Alex A]

Yes Dick, could peri the oncoming bullets, like in the wolverine films :D

 

Alex.

[mas4t0]

Yes Dick, could peri the oncoming bullets, like in the wolverine films :D

 

Alex.

 

Nah, you need a bo-staff for that. :lol:

[drdata]

This is turning into a complex topic lol, just for a minute, forget vanadium and modern steels and ask yourself..

 

During world war2, would a soldier with a gun need a particularly high strength blade?

 

Alex.

 

 

Yes, if they are Japanese.

 

Seems to me the length of the arisaka rifle and the hooked quilion bayo combo, along with RJT specifications and stress testing for star stamped swords were both indications that there was at least a romantic notion that battles may come down to blade play... This is one reason I like the star stamped, as they were produced for battle unlike much of shin-shinto etc....

 

Regards

[Stoney]

Maybe this link could be helpful?? http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_149.htm

[J Reid]

Interesting read! Thanks chad.

[zentsuji2]

The strength of steel produced now to what was then is insignificant,we all must stand in awe of Smith's who had no text books,just charcoal and tamahagane and overcame all impurities, mixed steels, and created martensite through heat and clay ,like the pioneers of flight took us to the moon,the pioneers and masters of steel manipulation gave us the urge to seek out the strong steels a Japanese company are churning out today.Also before the monosteel blades were necessary the traditional nihonto blades did what they were made to do kill people swiftly,I give the award to the traditionally made sword,which we all revere for had they made monosteel blades back then we wouldn't, have this wonderful forum.ianb

[Jean]

Ian,

 

Please sign all your posts with a full name as per the Board rules, taking into account that someone else have the same initials.

[Rivkin]

If one is to look at 7th-9th central "european" or semi-european dug-out blade one is going to find horribly looking masame hada that comes out after light etching, differentially hardened edge, usually made from steel and wielded to iron core. On 17th century blade to see lamination you need to soak it in potent acid for a few minutes. And what you'll see is really something like only 8 layers.

 

In European metallurgy the explanation of such difference is that bloomery (tamahagane) produces very small percentage of quality material, which then needs to be further reworked, or one needs to make steel by even more expensive processes like crucible. As steel is therefore very expensive, the edge is just as much as can be afforded, whether it is a knife or a sword. It is not to improve the blade, it is just the only way to make it on any reasonable budget.

As steel became more abundant and much more uniform later on - hada disappeared, as did all complicated multi-piece constructions, wielded edges, complex heat treatments and so on. One of important consequences, that even medieval European blades do not have hagire, fukure, usually don't have ware, but they are bland and bleak with little artistic or even individualistic component.

 

In Japan the process was about the same - good luck finding vivid hada on shinshinto and even on large portion of shinto blades. But the explanation provided was driven by the postulate - tamahagane is the best steel in the world (which it is for artistry, not for cutting) and old swords must be better than new ones (for artistry, not for cutting), and new swords must be still made from tamahagane (which judging even from their hada they are obviously not) and so on and so on. Then of course prepackaged setups for testing chemical elements helped to "explain" the superior qualities of Japanese swords (which is again, the postulate rather than any kind of observation) - as "findings" of vanadium, mb, 2% of C and other "miracle" elements were introduced into discussion.

 

Rivkin

[CurtisR]

If I may interject 2 practical points on this subject vs. metallurgy? I humbly submit, as a former soldier who was trained in Long Range Recon op's (meaning a team of 4 to 6 guys sneaking around where they shouldn't be) up to Battalion-sized combat ops, it really comes down to "what SHOULD I do, what is the BEST I can do, or what MUST I do?"

 

In LRP op's we would try not to be seen/heard. Even in the early 80's, the two best knives one could have were either a U.S. Mk3 trench knife, or one made by Randall. There were of course techniques for assisting in correct silent killing, but the knife was king for this (far and above a garrote). Disturbing but true.That's a "what SHOULD I do?" And pleeeeease don't get me started on Supressons (aka "Silencers"). Not even in the same continent when it comes to combat.

 

In other operations, the rifle was king. The knife came after all other ammo was expended. Basically, when you were "f'd" and unless you could get to another gun; you had the blade.

 

I can imagine that in WWII Japanese warfare, a well-forged sword (or even a well cared-for stamped blade) was a nice thing to have in-hand when being overrun, making the last stand, etc. (AKA -what MUST I do?). I can also see them being used well in LRP op's of the Japanese genre, although I haven't heard of this officially (One kesagiri and not much noise lol). I'd say a Wakizashi would serve best, but JMO.

On a side note, when your fellow soldiers saw you with a fine blade (I'd bet this translates to the Japanese soul as well), they knew you were good-to-go. I hope this can add tot he discussion, and apologize if it doesn't.

 

Curtis R.

[kusunokimasahige]

That story reminds me of Jack Churchill, who even carried his broadsword onto the beaches of Normandy in 1944 :

 

(Though the above photo was taken during a training exercise)

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill

[Alex A]

Great photo Henk, and interesting, never heard that one before..

 

Ps, now i get why the Japanese used their swords in WW2.

 

Alex.

[Dr Fox]

The significance of the sword carried in WW2 by the Japanese is well documented.

 

It should also be noted that the combat appearance of officers leading troops, is of a man armed only with a sword and a side arm. It is perhaps not silly to expect, that when he got close enough, that the sword would be up to doing service. But not all officers felt sword and pistol was enough, many devised slings to 'back carry' the sword and then favoured a rifle and bayonet.

 

Ancestral blades could well have been considered superior to the issue item, and could also have been regard as a lucky talisman. Which was better? This must come down to that stress situation, where one survives and the other didn't, so unless a direct test comparison can be done who knows?

 

Denis.

[kusunokimasahige]

No need to go too deep into the meaning and use of the Gunto and Kaigunto by IJA and IJN officers during WWII.

 

We all know they were tested.

 

 

KM