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Confirmed orders for "The Index of Japanese Swordsmiths"


Would you be interested in a confirmed purchase of the 2 volume: Index of Japanese Swordsmiths?  

48 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you be interested in a confirmed purchase of the 2 volume: Index of Japanese Swordsmiths?

    • Yes, I would be willing to purchase a copy of the high quality, hard bound, offset printed books at $100 plus shipping.
      29
    • Yes, I would be willing to purchase 2 copies of the high quality, hard bound offset printed books at $100 plus shipping.
      9
    • Yes, I would be willing to purchase 3 copies of the high quality, hard bound offset printed books at $100 plus shipping.
      6
    • Yes, I would be willing to purchase 5 copies of the high quality, hard bound offset printed books at $100 plus shipping.
      1
    • Yes, I would be willing to purchase 10 copies of the high quality, hard bound offset printed books at $100 plus shipping.
      1
    • No thank you, I am happy to purchase the current versions available or already own this set.
      2


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Hi Adrian, Personally, I don't really care if this happens or not, but I don't think Brian is attacking you at all

 

Well, I do care if this happens or not :) And I didn't said that Brian attacked me or the project, he's just being a bit over-pesimistic about certain details that need to be worked out, in a moment when he's the one who should be pushing the project forward.

 

P.S. He did expressed (a few good months ago) some suspicions that were completely misplaced and even a bit illogical (given the exact circumstances), but that's already in the past and also completely irrelevant for the current state of the project (since he took over the project after finding an awesome offer from a US based printer).

 

Hate to play devil advocate, i lay money you get no more than fifty paid orders

 

That's a possibility, of course, but keep in mind that ve have in the poll one vote for 10+copies (John Stuart) and Barry also changed his pre-oder to 10 copies in a post. If Brian didn't changed Barry's vote in the poll to better keep track of the pre-orders (Barry initially voted 2 copies if memory serves) that's already 20 copies with 2 payments. And personally I think that most if not all of those who voted 3 copies and more will follow trough.

So about 80 payments may very well be enough.

 

In the end, that's a choice which heavily depends on personality: some people -me included- would rather try and risk to fail (particularly when the all the "risk" involved is just some hassle about refunding a few paypal payments), while other people would rather not try at all until 101% sure that everything is lined up - therefore risking to just bury the whole thing.

 

Brian made it sound like refunding 100 paypal payments was some titanic task. I say it's at worst a two afternoon's work for a single person, if all the payments (done correctly, paypal fees included in the total amount) include a clear message which states the purpose of the payment and the number of copies ordered.

If split between 4 volunteers, as I suggested, it's something easy compared to what you volunteered for. (being the shipping hub for the US orders)

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Adrian,

You do know you are completely transparent, right? I mean you aren't even doing a good job of faking it. It's quite a laugh really.

Back off now. Don't even reply. Just sit back, and let whatever happens, happen.

 

Brian

 

Ps - I never took over the project. You were never going to get it. Never. Not you or your Eastern European printers. I just found a real offer with a track record.

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I really hope I'm transparent because I don't see what's to be hidden here :lol:

 

I proposed to do all the project with money from my own pocket to put an end to all this "good ole boy" attitude. Then you said I was going to print more copies (and pocket the difference), when we struggle to get 150 orders :lol: . And when I pointed this out you closed the topic for a few months.

 

As for "real offer" vs Eastern European printers, you obviously don't know how many of the books sold in Western Europe are printed in Eastern Europe these days.

 

 

Again, please understand that I have nothing against you and IF YOU FOLLOW TROUGH I'm very happy that you took over (you really got A LOT of work off my shoulders). But do follow trough, don't just present a perfect offer and then bury the project under a mountain of silence.

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Adrian,

 

the only thing you have accomplished with all this is to put off everyone that was interested in the project, and frustrate the people that are actually doing anything real. Nothing positive has come out of your bickering. So maybe you should think about a mountain of silence of your own... :idea:

 

Brian: take your time, do some calculations etc. if you still want to and we'll see what happens, thanks for your efforts in this endeavor.

 

To continue on a positive note: I will commit to one copy of the set of books!!

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In the end, that's a choice which heavily depends on personality: some people -me included- would rather try and risk to fail (particularly when the all the "risk" involved is just some hassle about refunding a few paypal payments), while other people would rather not try at all until 101% sure that everything is lined up - therefore risking to just bury the whole thing.

 

My dear Sir

 

Would you re-read your post above. "Risk to fail" You and I have danced on this one before, it was not a clever statement then, and certainly has not improved with age. Do you hand on heart advocate seriously, that the involvement of all should risk coming to nothing, and that delays, and 101% certainty should be discarded in favour of your personality traits. :bang: Not very inspiring to me.

 

 

It appears that any praise you are given, spurs you on into greater efforts to be annoying. Roberts post I am sorry to say, echoes perhaps an agreement from many quarters of the board.

 

I know from past experience with you, that this will fall on stoney ground, but hope springs eternal.

 

When you have bent the nail, stop hammering!

 

No more from me :lipssealed: :lipssealed: :lipssealed:

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Adrian,

 

the only thing you have accomplished with all this is to put off everyone that was interested in the project

 

And they named you their spokesperson, right? :lol: Jeez... :roll: Your involvement in this being zero so far and the order placed in this post barely covering the obvious and useless personal attack.

 

As stated in my previous post, I only post here when I see that nothing moved for a few months (usually 3 or so) . The motivation for doing so being that I strongly believe that the window of opportunity for going trough with this project isn't going to remain open forever.

 

 

If you bothered to actually read at least the recent posts, you would have noticed that the result of my "bickering" is that Brian posted the part about the ROTW members being put off by high shipping costs. Then Grey came with the brilliant idea of a flat shipping fee for every copy. So now we have moved forward an inch or two. Then Stephen volunteered to be the shipping hub for the US orders, so we moved forward another bit.

 

All we lack at this point are one (or even better, a few) well known and respected volunteers for receiving the Paypal payments. We have 2 orders for 10 copies each (John and Barry), 2 orders for 5 copies each (Mark V. and Jussi) and 6 orders for 3 copies, only these total 48 copies. TBH I think that all these orders will be paid for.

Then we have 9 orders for two copies each and 29 orders for one copy each in the poll (totaling another 47 copies) plus a few orders for 1-2 copies in various posts, like yours.

 

In total, we have over 100 confirmed orders. Not all will be paid for, of course, but I expect the rate to be quite high. As I said before, I'd rather try and fail when the ONLY risk involved is some hassle with Paypal refunds, then do nothing and let the project die, while waiting for another 50 orders to magically appear out of nowhere.

 

 

Besides, there's another factor that needs to be accounted for: announcing on the board that payments for 80 copies have already been collected will most likely result in a few other people joining in (this always happens when this kind of project actually starts rolling and people see the ship leaving the shore, so to speak).

 

All things considered, I really don't understand why some people see this as an opportunity for a flame war, instead of seeing it as an opportunity to do something positive and help the project...

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don't know why I want to dip my toes any deeper into this water but,

Why don't I check with a local printer and see would it would cost. why have to pay shipping to me?

 

Not muddling back thru all past post

 

Need the hard facts and requirements, I take it the info is in electric format to be sent to printer, pages per volume? what paper weight? Hard bound or paper?

 

Just a list I can call in to my printer.

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Stephen,

Will email you the details tonight. Be aware that VERY few printers will even consider a small run of offset printing. So far, 2 are willing and have quoted. See if yours will.

As for Adrian...you are out of this project. Nothing to do with it. Please refrain from from commenting further, otherwise please go and frequent another forum. None of your current "input" was anything new, or groundbreaking. I am not going to use multiple people for fund collection for obvious reasons. If people are willing to pay a flat rate including shipping, this may happen. If not, then it won't.

Right now, various other people are working on quotes and info and have been the whole time. Since no-one is making a profit from this project, no-one will stop their daily lives to complete it in a hurry. It will happen when it does, or it won't.

Since this is my forum, I don't feel I need to entertain people who irritate me for whatever reason. So I really don't see why I need you buzzing around me like a mosquito. I am not even sure you are a Nihonto enthusiast or collector. So far all of your input has been everywhere except Nihonto. Don't bother with your counter arguments, since this is my forum, and is free...I don't even have to be reasonable about it. Go stealth mode, or go away. You are welcome to print these with your own money and sell them. Good luck with that.

As for the others assisting behind the scenes, thanks..and keep me updated. Will send Stephen the info too.

 

Brian

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I am not even sure you are a Nihonto enthusiast or collector. So far all of your input has been everywhere except Nihonto.

 

Despite our differences I respect your work with this forum, have no doubt about it. And I have no problem accepting the fact that you don't like me or whatever other personal reasons you may have to post this message. Will therefore comply with your request.

 

However there's one thing I don't understand, why you felt the need to defame me. This is the topic I've made on this very message board almost a year ago, after I received a wakizashi in Soten style mounts purchased from Grey viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15304&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

 

(I'm sure he can confirm this and also my interest in purchasing a larger lot of nihonto and tosogu themed books)

 

Now, of course a sword purchase isn't going to make someone a nihonto collector, but I'm pretty sure the purchase and the subsequent research in the story depicted on the mounts qualifies me as an enthusiast.

 

So please do not use your position as an administrator to defame someone that you can put in the position to be unable to reply.

 

Again, I apologize if I have somehow offended you, it certainly wasn't my intention.

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Adrian,

That's good to see, I am very happy to consider you an enthusiast then.

If you look through your more than 580 posts, you may want to then increase the number of them concerning Japanese swords, and less about quibbling over various points and technicalities. Leave the debating and counterpointing for other forums, and focus more on education and advise on pertinent subjects.

 

Brian

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Glad we sorted that out. As for the rest, I hope you don't count the idea of this project as "quibbling over various points and technicalities". TBH I'd say that, if anything, it should count as a valuable contribution.

 

Please understand that I would have never bugged you every 3 months (mosquito style, as you put it with a bit of hostility) if I wasn't 100% sure that the possibility to have such a small edition printed in offset will vanish into thin air once the economy fully recovers from the recession.

 

I think that enough members have contacts in the printing business and they will confirm that, before 2007, practically no printer would have touched an order under 500 copies. And even those who would touch a 500 copies order were not that many. This is why I kept inquiring and pressing about this idea, not some weird desire to wind you up.

 

This being said, I hope you'll take this argument into consideration and manage to go trough with the project before the opportunity is gone. Best of luck!

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If you contact a printers regarding a low quantity black only run then you will likely get one response....will you go digital?. Printers who specialize in this kind of work buy modern digital machinery specifically for that task. The offset book your looking for will likely be printed on a large offset press that does not usually pump out black only work, usually will be full colour work. Usually they will shy away from black only work because there is better money to be made, OR to make it worth their while, they will hit you with a price that covers the machine time, as if it was a full colour book they where printing. The cost of the paper between a 150 run and a 500 run book is negligible.

 

Its turned into quite a complicated can of worms, Markus a while back in this thread suggested a revised lulu edition (maybe better stock etc, not sure how far you can go with lulu?), that would certainly make the job a lot easier for folk, no money wories, no delivery hassles, less errors etc etc. As Brian pointed out though, seemed id forgot this book idea was based on top quality printing, just cant help thinking there needs to be a compromise somewhere along the lines.

 

I think with enough searching you will find an offset printers that handles individual shipping, hopefully at a reasonable rate, but in my experience, they usually see that as another money maker.

 

I do hope the offset idea comes to light, some offset printers struggle to compete in the modern age of digital

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Why is everyone acting like we are in the first stages of finding a printer? :dunno:

I already posted we have 2 places willing to do it, 2 quotes, and are likely going with the one (details are known to some members)

I posted the quote, details and prices. The only thing I am working out is shipping and small details like slip case and/or individual boxing. Payment would be done via one of the campaign fundraisers as I mentioned, as this is less stress for everyone. But if someone else wants to handle it, I'm quite happy to pass on all the info for them to finalize as I have very limited time daily. (About a half hour a day free)

Just got back the weight estimate. About 9# per set using the 80 weight Finch Opaque. Can someone who knows paper research this and see if it is a good option? Going to #80 from #70 will add bulk and weight. The books will be about 3" thick together.

 

Brian

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I'm not familiar with US paper brands so I cannot really comment on Finch Opaque, but going from 70# to 80# will make a big difference in making this book feel like a quality product. Keep in mind this is a large format book, so the paper HAS to be thicker then what you would normally use on a regular sized book (to avoid the pages being easy to tear trough normal use).

 

Go to a local printer and ask him to show you 70#, 80# and 85# paper samples in A4 size, you'll see what I mean. Smaller samples just don't let you figure out the difference if you dont have experience.

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Hello Brian, ive just had a look over the finch page. Difficult to give an opinion on paper quality without having it in hand. They describe it as smooth, thats usually an indication that it is not a coated stock. That being said, these types of paper are widely used for printing books, usually are very good quality and often its difficult to tell the difference between that and matt coated paper. They usually have a silky feel with a bit of shine, an example would be "The craft of the Japanese sword".

As long as the paper is around that range then its ok. Be aware that some paper manufacturers like to over boast about their plain old uncoated, that would obviously be a no no. As Adrian mentioned, best to get samples, the printers should send them out free of charge, the only way to be sure.

http://www.limitedpapers.com/finch-opaq ... -8004.html

 

Good of you to give up your time for this project!

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The paper being quoted on is uncoated. In their words:

"Most single color book manufacturer's, including ourselves, don't print coated text stocks because it requires dryers on the press equipment. Book manufacturer's that print color text naturally have dryers on their equipment."

 

I think at this stage, with Grey's permission, I migh have them send him a sample of each paper type, as I am sure he has the experience to determine a decent paper.

 

Brian

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Hello Brian. If it turns out to be a good quality uncoated paper as i mentioned above then that is fine. If it turns out to be low quality uncoated, the kind you see in paperbacks etc (an example book would be Yumato,s The samurai sword), then i would advise against it, top quality is what your after. As for the technical jargon on drying, these days most offset printers seal their matte printed papers and boards with a sealer coat whilst running on the press, whether black only or colour, so no need for dryers. To keep costs down for some customers we have printed many jobs without sealer, they dry, so im not too sure where their coming from, maybe they have older machinery or machinery that tends to mark a bit. Anyway, all thats besides the point, look forward to hearing about the paper quality.

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Hi Brian,

You are welcome to have the paper sample/s sent to me and I will report what I can. I'm not an authority on paper, though, just a book seller. If someone else is better suited to the job by all means choose him.

Grey Doffin, Box 114, Duluth, MN 55801

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Sorry for coming back to the topic so late.

Just want to mention that if we have to go via larger shipping units

and ship then individually, I would be happy to take over the distribution

for the EU part (or Europe of course;)

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TBH I think we should send some samples to Grey (who is well known by a lot of people on this board and also has experience with how books resist in time) and to Markus who is the author.

 

Nothing against Alex if the printer is willing to ship 3 sample sets, but my feeling is that 1 sample set shipped domestic and 1 sample set shipped international is what we can ask from him without pushing it.

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