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A tanto tsuba kantei


Higo-san

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Curious.

The mei isn't real....added later? The sekigane aren't real.

So the question is...are they decorative, or is the whole tsuba fake? I honestly don't know. The iron looks ok to me..doesn't look cast. But I could be wrong. The details don't seem cast either, and they aren't painted? There is some applied metal imho.

But if Ford were here, I have a feeling he would be saying that the kozuka ana serves no purpose where it is.

I have no idea. You have a compilation of features that are totally wrong, but then a few that look ok to me. If the sekigane are fake, then usually the whole tsuba isn't real. But can they ever be someone's idea of decorative?

I guess the obvious answer would be the whole thing must be a repro or fake, but I do hope there is another answer. It isn't the usual Chinese fake junk.

 

Man! I should stick to swords. :glee:

 

Brian

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To be honest, I do not get your point about the sekigane. They are neither faked nor unreal. The metal body of the tsuba and the sekigane are two (or rather three) different parts (maybe the thin line between the iron and the copper is not very strong on the pictures, but it is definately there)...

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just allow me to say-this was an fast,but equally very effective Kantei! :)

:beer:

 

just some days ago i had an quite similar collection in sight...from 10 there were at least 5-6(the sixth one i got puzzeled myself)Ditto to this candidate here...

but to(maybe?) highten morale for further days....

see attachement-(some of us at least are well aware about happenings in "collectors life"...-LOL!)

an image to keep in mind and hopefully in constant focus!

DO BUY YOU BOOKS BEFORE YOU DO BUY YOU ANYTHING ELSE!

Christian

post-2022-14196870702227_thumb.jpg

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you but certainly will not compare an Tanaka-tsuba(like this excellent link)

to an "candidate" here which shall been called as an Tsuba!

(????????????????????????????????????????????????????Hopefully!)

But well- :dunno:

(it will finally sort out as anlready papered/issued one-and such...the real "work" starts...LOL! ;)

(Such!-we had equally already....jbw)

:glee:

 

Christian

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Sebastien,

 

Your example is totally different as it shows gold in the nakago ana which is not the case in this tanto tsuba. Usually sekigane are copper made. From the picture provided (nakago ana) what is the metal used for these sekigane?

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Hi Chris K.,

 

In my opinion what I am seeing is a cast reproduction. That is of quality intended to fool collectors. I can't be sure from low resolution photos and not having the tsuba in hand. I hope the place where it was purchased has a return policy for a refund or exchange.

 

P.S. I hope I am wrong on this but I don't think I am.

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Some Tanaka school tsuba use gold on their sekigane. A simple google search will show that.

To say that sekigane never had gold on them is wrong.

These sekigane show on the inside of the ana if you look carefully.

I also see crosshatching under the gold 'splotches'- nunome zogan.

Seems to be slight wear in the seppa dai area from mounting.

Surface iron doesn't look cast to me.

 

I think this tsuba has been denigrated prematurely.

I agree the mei is a little funky looking but nothing else strikes me as fake.

 

Late Edo, maybe later, copy of a Tanaka school tsuba.

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Thank for your comments so far!

 

The sekigane are made out of copper with dotted gold points on it (I have attached another photo of a tanaka tsuba which shows the very same technique; I am sorry for the bad quality of my photos). And tey are not cast into the plate and then painted.

 

As suggested by Christian, I opened some books and I realized that tanaka sekigane did never ever serve any other prupose than being decoration ;-)!

 

Let`s come back to this litte tsuba: I do think it is tanaka school tsuba. The reasons for this being:

 

- the surface of the iron plate (which has the typical brownish color) is done in a nice way. If you do compare this tsuba to bigger ones done by the tanako school, you will realize that the bigger ones have a fantastic tsujime. Since this little tsuba (only 5 cm in height) does not offer enough space for a extended tsujime, it was done in a smaller way to fit the smaller size. You can see this effect best on the third picture (which actually comes closest to real).

 

- the sekigane are nothing else but average quality tanaka sekigane.

 

- the whole picture is somewhat "framed", which means that the decoration creates a frame (one of the elements, the tanaka school is famous for) and at the very same time the frame is the decoration.

 

- the mei is not imposed; it is carved. But I could only find one other poor resolution picture of another tsuba showing the Masasada mei. Does someone have another reference signature?

 

Adding all those hints together, this one should be a tanaka tsuba. Did I convince at least some of the critics ;-)?

I believe it has been made for a kaiken or something very small. The picture itself (a garden scene) also suggests that. But I am happy for other ideas! Maybe someone recognizes this scenery?

 

The discussion also raised another question: how did the tanaka guys do the gold spots on the sekigane? Were they painted?

post-4315-14196870738288_thumb.jpg

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I'm with Lee. The iron doesn't look cast, and there is some semi skilled metal application. A lot of it doesn't match cast repros. But then there are a number of things wrong too...such as the signature.

Proof that all is not cut and dried with tosogu. Wish Ford were online instead of away winning gold medals... :lol:

If there are advanced study members who have an opinion but hesitate to express it publicly..I would be glad to have them by pm and can post them without a name...would love to get further opinions

 

Brian

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At least, the discussion is very interesting.

 

@ Mariusz:

 

Mariusz, can you give reasons for your statement?

 

Seriously, the quality of this tsuba is very low.

 

Please, do not get me wrong! I do not say, you are wrong; but I think one can only learn, if a reason for a statement is given (and I can only evaluate an opinon if a reason is given). May I remind you, that your arguements until now were: "Those "sekigane" serve no purpose. Never seen sekigane painted gold.". Well, then you do not have seen too many tanaka tsuba, I am afraid. Again, no offense to you or your expertise on tsuba, Mariusz! I am just curious about the "why".

 

That is why I am very much with Brian. The reason why I have posted this tsuba is the following: it does not have any NBTHK papers attesting anything to it. It does have some really nice features (like the hammered surface, the gold applied, the way the blossoms are done: did you realize that there is some shakudo layer on top of the silver which has been rubbed away (intentionally?) in order to show the silver that lies beneath it?), but on the other hand there are things like the smaller hitsu ana which does not fit well into the design (and that is really untypical for tanaka).

 

Thanks again for reading and replying to this topic. Please put me in cc when you send those PMs to Brian ;-)! I will not take any offense in criticism. Since Christian has already pointed a gun into my face, I do not think it can become worse ;-))))!

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Christopher :)

 

i would never dare to aim an gun in direction to you here(or any other collector)!

This picture posted rather should ben seen for those PRODUCING FAKE!(as they read equally our´s posts here ;) )

LOL!-of course,not to ben taken personally for us here(somehow we all do sit in the same boat-not?)

:)

 

Thanks for posting this latest picture Christopher-This,makes it different of course!

Laugh!....

 

Christian

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Here are my thoughts.

Good points

The motif of plum blossom cuttings, the flower arranging scissors and the bamboo vase for the cuttings, hint at Hideyoshi and his interest in tea ceremony and the days of the Momoyama period. There is a reference that I enjoyed reading a long time ago that explains this composition but I can't find it at the moment to share.

The iron looks good as does the hammer work, but that could be the monitor of this computer.

 

Bad points

The main points that would concern me is that the signature does not look like it was carved, but looks cast. The composition of the whole tsuba is not organized very well, it is cluttered, the vase is oversized, the inclusion of the scissors is sloppy and seems like an after thought.

The nakago ana looks odd but that could be the gold sekigana.

 

To me it seems that it has been made to look like a tsuba by someone who doesn't make tsuba. I would say a real Japanese Meiji period tourist piece.

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That is a start, Mariusz ;) !

 

Of course, the tiger is nicely done and costs, for sure, fifteen times more than my tsuba. But if you do compare the way the gold is applied to the leaves beneath the tiger and the way the small twig is done, it reminds me of my tsuba (I have attached another photo; the best I can do with my mobile phone...). Can you see (from the pictures) that the long twig and the flowers body are done by using two different metals and techniques (silver inlay and iron cutting)? IMHO, that makes it too costly and difficult for low quality tourist stuff. I have also attached a close-up of the scissor to show the rubbing effect; it is actually done in three different metals: silver, shakudo and a very small gold plug (where the scissor opens).

 

Also, I have attached a photo of another tanaka piece. It is interesting to see the way the surface was done (completely different than the one posted by Mariusz).

post-4315-14196870746293_thumb.jpg

post-4315-14196870748258_thumb.jpg

post-4315-14196870751766_thumb.jpg

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Chris,

 

I didn't say it was cast. But it is a low quality item, possibly a hamamono, not a Tanaka school tsuba. Sorry.

 

You might want to train your eye and buy some books on tsuba, especially those with good photographs. I recommend the KTK catalogues - some really excellent tsuba there.

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Thank you for your statements, Mariusz! To be honest, I totally agree with you with regards to quality (and books). The other tsuba, that were taken as reference works, are done in a much higher quality.

 

Nevertheless, I simply wanted to discuss the features of this small tsuba. I do not want to convince anybody that this a treasure find! But I do believe that this tsuba is worth disussing it, since it has some features that are worth a discussion. This is the reason why I try to challenge people into a discussion.

 

I do like the idea that this tsuba was done by some non-trained guy named Masasada (what does the rest of the mei say BTW?) who tried to imitate the style of tanaka. And then - looking at the parts where he failed in - understanding what makes tanaka special.

 

In my opinion you cannot discuss the big names (like Kiyotoshi...) only by seeing photos. You will allways miss something - and this something is what makes them spectacular. A good example are Higo tsuba: If you ever had the oportunity to hold at least two iron Jingobei in hand, you will understand what pictures can never teach you. To come back to this very tsuba: on this tsuba one could (if I were be a more talented photographer...) see everything one needs to see from photos to fully judge the tsuba. And that`s why I wanted to discuss this tsuba and not a Kiyotoshi ;-) - besides the fact that I do not own a Kiyotoshi :cry:.

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..... the surface of the iron plate (which has the typical brownish color) is done in a nice way. If you do compare this tsuba to bigger ones done by the tanako school, you will realize that the bigger ones have a fantastic tsujime. Since this little tsuba (only 5 cm in height) does not offer enough space for an extended tsujime, it was done in a smaller way to fit the smaller size.....

As I am a man with a hammer I would like to make a comment on this. What is described here does not look like hammerwork (TSUCHI-MEI-JI) but is perhaps best described as ISHIME-JI. Depending on the shape and weight of a hammer (or additional chisels) you can produce shallow or more pointed indentations down to minuscule stippling marks but it will look quite different from this TSUBA.

 

On the photos this surface - if not produced by a combination of stippling and a chemical treatment or long term corrosion - looks very much like cast in a sand mold.

 

The MEI could have been done with a dull or rounded chisel, but I don't know if this was a usual technique.

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The photo of a real Tanaka tsuba (tsuba7.jpg) posted by Higo-san above reinforces the point I made about the tsuba in question. In that photo the seki gane, while they do appear to be more ornamental than practical, are made of copper and wrap from one side, through the nakago hitsu ana, to the other side. The seki gane on the OP tsuba are nothing more than gold paint or wash over the iron on both sides of the tsuba, and they don't wrap through the ana. I can think of no reason why a tsuba-shi would do this. This and the mei that looks obviously to be cast leave me with no explanation other than cast tsuba.

Grey

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