Modern or Antique

[mas4t0]

Hello Gentlemen,

 

I've been wondering for a while what would be the best course of action with regards to obtaining very high quality nihonto.

 

Would a certain amount generally go further with a modern blade from a Mukansa smith or an antique blade?

 

Is it a worthwhile exercise to compare and contrast modern blades with antiques or do you consider this to be an apples and oranges type of comparison?

 

Thank you for your time.

 

Kind Regards,

Mark

[J Reid]

With the amount of money you'd fork out for a mukansa smith, you could go equally as high with an older blade IMO. With any budget- It's really preference.. I'd much rather own a blade with history than one made yesterday. But then again.. young.. old.. I love em all! Hah

[mas4t0]

Maybe a more specific question would be better.

 

Given that a Juyo blade can be had for $20k-$30k, would you consider it be worth saving up an additional $20k to buy a blade by the likes of Ono Yoshimitsu or Gassan Sadatoshi?

 

I'm tying to gauge where people would place the quality of these blades, if we were to disregard historical context for the moment.

 

If Ono Yoshimitsu for instance had been working in the 14th century, how would his blades likely be regarded today?

[J Reid]

I have seen 1 blade by Ono yoshimitsu for sale @30k. I would say you're looking at the same price range give or take a few K. I would say that, again, IMO nothing beats an old koto blade that's won and lost many many battles. Ono yoshimitsu is a fine smith today. So I am sure 600 years ago he would've been just as great. Quality runs throughout the centuries. Apples and oranges. If you can afford it, buy one of each.

[cabowen]

In general, one gets a better investment when buying an older blade. If you are concerned with preserving your investment, in the short term (say, less than 100 years), the koto Juto would be a safer bet.

 

Money isn't everything, and what you can get by ordering a sword from a living smith, is the pride of ownership that comes with becoming part of the creative process required to bring a new sword into the world. A special ordered blade, usually with your name on it, is one of a kind. Most people whom I have assisted in ordering a custom blade are looking for a piece of history, in which they played a role, that can be a family heirloom.

 

Different goals....

[seattle1]

Hello All:

What an interesting question Mark poses! It is one for which there is no easy or perfect answer.

If one starts with the premise that collection is just appreciation for the object, then owning a sword is unnecessary. Money could well be spent on amassing and studying a library on swords and their contexts, for which there now is a virtual Niagara Falls of material. One could visit museums around the world, attend sword shows, join associations of collectors, participate in kantei competitions to hone and test one's skills, etc. In fact most of that is just a good starting point for buying the first sword if ownership is the intention.

For the buying part the advice will be all over the board. Some will suggest that an unsigned Shinto wakizashi is cheap and the perfect onion skin to be peeled to learn from. The idea of a top shinsakuto, and there are terrific examples, is another way to go. They are very costly. Paying the high price is more or less necessary for someone, just to keep the craft going. Under today's restrictions a licensed smith can only make a few blades a year and to be working as a smith in high cost of living Japan means they must make something close to their foregone wage to be in that activity. Japan is one of the highest GDP per capita countries on earth as well, so do the math; the price for a first buyer from a smith of note will be high. Who knows how any not at the very top will sort out over the years, so it is sort of a crap shoot. The best bet is probably to buy a shinsakuto on the second or third bounce.

Buying a top quality, Jo saku or above, Shinto wakizashi is probably dollar for dollar the best quality per dollar expenditure that can be made. At the end of the koto period there were tons of fine long swords that could be carried by the samurai who now had to wear two swords. Outstanding smiths found that market demand led them to make wakizashi and numerous fine examples exist, highly rated and reasonable.

Finally, if one wanted to jump higher I would suggest a Juyo from the Heian or Early Kamakura era, ideally Bizen. For it to cost less than a top German sports car means that it would come with flaws to a greater or lesser degree. Worry not, almost all really old swords are flawed, it is just degree and dollar considerations. Such a sword would be a tremendous model, an example from which most other swords eventually derived in one way or another, and it would be a great standard by which to judge the next sword to be brought into the collection. Twenty to thirty thousand or so would get such a thing. If that is too much, who says a good sword can't be owned jointly with others?

Just some off the cuff thoughts.

Arnold F.

[paulb]

I think in consdering new versus old there will be as many answers as there are collectors. We all have our own ideas and a lot of choice is based on subjective assessment. I have listed some thoughts below which outline how I approach the topic:

As has often been demonstrated here collecting swords has many pit falls. fake works attributed to famous smiths often out number originals and there can often be disagreement amongst authenticating bodies as to whether a piece is genuine, a copy or an outright fake. It is a minefield (like many others) and one that has to be walked carefully. You can spend a lifetime studing but still get it wrong.

An advantage of buying a new sword from a high ranking working smith is that there are no doubts about its origins and authenticity. This can be very reassuring when paying larger sums. However it does carry the risk of the unknown as to whether the work will hold its value or increase, or go totally out of favour and decrease.

Another advantage is that you are seeing something as the smith intended, not a work that has been modified and changed by use and numerous polishes.

I have not seen many modern blades, those that have studied them regard the best as being as good as much that has gone before and better than most.

There are great works from all sword periods and we can all name smiths from the shinto and shin-shinto periods who produced outstanding work. However when studying later work those that produced or are producing the best were all attempting to recreate the quality achieved during the Kamakura period.

Allowing my own biase to show through I believe very sincerely that the art of sword making reached its peak in the Kamakura period. To quote George Cameron Stone these swords were "The nearest thing to perfection made by human hand". Everyone thereafter has attempted to recreate the quality of steel, forging and hardening that those smiths achieved. If their work wasn't the best why would others try so hard to emulate it?

Based on the above and given choice and freedom of budget I would always aim for a good Kamakura blade. The key word there being good because the majority of work from this period is not necessarily good many examples are tired or just plain worn out. However when you see a good example it shines out above all else around it.

If you cant find a good Koto blade then a good quality shinto or shinshinto is better value in terms of study and enjoyment than a worn out koto. Equally having a Shinsakuto to compare to the earlier work would be a worthwhile thing to do. Unfortunately to achieve this you are likely to need very deep pockets.

Not sure if this answers anything but sometimes it is useful to outline your thinking when trying to decide to buy or not buy something

Regards

Paul